Morgan May Treuil [00:00:00]:
All right, welcome back everybody to Am I Doing This Right?
Leslie Johnston [00:00:05]:
Morgan and I, and we have a, a back by popular demand special guest, Pastor Jason Caine.
Jason Caine [00:00:13]:
Such a popular demand that it's been like 3 years. No, such a popular demand.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:19]:
You were so good, we brought you on early.
Jason Caine [00:00:21]:
Oh, okay.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:22]:
So that's how you were one of—
Leslie Johnston [00:00:23]:
well, sorry, we had Stephanie on before you, right? Because I think she's been obviously She's great. But then we had you on really quickly after that. We need to bring Stephanie back. Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:00:32]:
How many times has Kevin Thompson been on?
Leslie Johnston [00:00:34]:
Once.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:34]:
Oh, one and done. Never again. I'm just kidding. We love you, Kevin.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:38]:
Totally understandable. Yeah, no, we had Kevin on once, but this is your second time and it's an honor to get asked back. I don't know if you knew this.
Jason Caine [00:00:45]:
I'm very honored. This is the honor of my life. Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:47]:
What were your honest thoughts after the last one?
Jason Caine [00:00:50]:
I couldn't even remember. Seemed like it was decades ago.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:52]:
Do you remember what we talked about? Uh, no, it was hearing the voice of God.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:57]:
Oh, okay. I remember we talked a lot about, um, like Gen Z in the workplace. Like, you were like, stop asking people to mentor you.
Jason Caine [00:01:04]:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:05]:
So good.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:06]:
It was really—
Jason Caine [00:01:08]:
so that I give pretty regularly.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:09]:
That's great, I love it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:11]:
So if you haven't listened to that episode, go listen to Jason's first episode because it was really good.
Jason Caine [00:01:15]:
Thank you.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:16]:
Do you have anything to catch up on?
Jason Caine [00:01:18]:
Uh, in my life? In my life?
Leslie Johnston [00:01:20]:
Yeah, because last time I saw you, life updates was 3 years ago.
Jason Caine [00:01:24]:
Life updates. Yeah, my wife and I had another baby. Just kidding. No, we did not. No real life.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:30]:
What would happen?
Jason Caine [00:01:30]:
Like, I would die if I found out my wife was pregnant. We saw this lady on Instagram the other day. She's 43. She has, like, grown kids, 20s, right? And she's pregnant right now. And me and Steph were like, we would not ever imagine that would happen to us.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:45]:
I just can't.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:46]:
You would not do well.
Jason Caine [00:01:47]:
I feel like I'm almost at the finish line. My kids are 15. They're in high school.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:50]:
So that's the finish line. Like, oh, like, if your kid— not like, yeah, yeah. Like, I can see you're at the finish line.
Jason Caine [00:01:54]:
Of life? No.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:55]:
Okay, I was gonna say you were very young.
Jason Caine [00:01:57]:
This doesn't age terribly. It'd be a viral clip though.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:01]:
Imagine if they were seniors in high school about to graduate and then you guys found out you were pregnant.
Jason Caine [00:02:05]:
I would cry.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:07]:
Yes, for days.
Jason Caine [00:02:08]:
You're starting the clock over again. You've already done everything there is to do. I don't know anything about children anymore.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:15]:
Like, it all changed.
Jason Caine [00:02:15]:
You know a lot. Everything changed, you know.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:17]:
It all changes.
Jason Caine [00:02:18]:
It's like, yeah, they have the wireless pumps now. That wasn't a thing. My wife was plugged in everywhere. Yeah, and people were just walking around. It's crazy.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:27]:
This is—
Jason Caine [00:02:28]:
this is—
Leslie Johnston [00:02:28]:
it is funny how though, like, while we do have wireless pumps now, we still have not figured out how to make them to where you can use them in public, which to me is like, what are we doing?
Jason Caine [00:02:37]:
Yeah, which—
Leslie Johnston [00:02:38]:
not, not that you even should be, but like, if you're like, I could be doing a lot of stuff right now, like, how is technology not advanced enough?
Jason Caine [00:02:45]:
You know what it is? Women's issues. They don't accelerate quickly.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:48]:
That is very true. Oh yeah, this in particular is one of those things.
Jason Caine [00:02:52]:
Yeah, it's a problem.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:53]:
Wow.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:53]:
In a closet right now in our office because I can't get into the HR, just so everybody knows. Good to know. Violation. I got that out. Um, so nothing new? You didn't have a kid?
Jason Caine [00:03:05]:
No, don't have a kid. Nothing new is happening in my life. Just great.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:08]:
Nice.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:08]:
You're still a pastor?
Jason Caine [00:03:09]:
I'm still a pastor. That's the plan for life.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:12]:
Don't ever try to stop doing that. March Madness starts today.
Jason Caine [00:03:15]:
March Madness starts today. Excited about that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:16]:
How into sports are you? I was talking to a friend of mine this morning about that. They were like, when sports start, it's like you alter your life to fit the sports.
Jason Caine [00:03:25]:
It's like Jesus, sports, and it's not really—
Leslie Johnston [00:03:30]:
so where's your family in that?
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:32]:
Oh, he's like, we're already at the finish line, so they're kind of like, they're with families.
Jason Caine [00:03:36]:
Well, I integrate my family and I really don't— no, I'm— my son watches, just started watching sports with me.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:42]:
So really, that's special.
Jason Caine [00:03:44]:
It's not a real, real thing.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:46]:
Is March Madness your thing, or are you—
Jason Caine [00:03:48]:
I love all sports. Um, I definitely enjoy March Madness. It also brings back some memory. So my anniversary is Saturday the 21st, so it always— March Madness coincides with my anniversary. My wife and I, we went to Vegas for our honeymoon, so I remember being in Vegas watching March Madness, and that was awesome.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:03]:
On your honeymoon?
Jason Caine [00:04:06]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:07]:
So The honeymoon from hell.
Jason Caine [00:04:09]:
It was not.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:11]:
I'm in Vegas watching March Madness.
Jason Caine [00:04:14]:
There's great food in Vegas.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:17]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:04:18]:
Shows in Vegas. I mean, I didn't just watch games all day and I didn't have my phone out at the table or anything like that. Never. I mean, seriously, for me, when I was looking for a wife, it had to be somebody— if you didn't love sports, that was fine, but you just couldn't impede my love for sports. Sports.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:34]:
What's happening? Does she love sports?
Jason Caine [00:04:36]:
No, she doesn't care. She does not care. But she's not like, let's watch a show when there's a game on. Yeah, yeah, I think that would be terrible.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:44]:
Or do you get more excited about, um, what's Atlanta's football team?
Jason Caine [00:04:48]:
The Falcons.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:49]:
The Falcons. You get more excited about the Falcons than you do— what's Atlanta's basketball team?
Jason Caine [00:04:53]:
The Hawks. Uh, I'm more emotionally—
Leslie Johnston [00:04:55]:
two different kinds of animals—
Jason Caine [00:04:56]:
connected to the Falcons.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:58]:
Okay.
Jason Caine [00:04:59]:
Because they break my heart a lot.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:01]:
Yeah, you know, yeah, it's like a bad relationship.
Jason Caine [00:05:03]:
It's a terrible relationship. It's a terrible relationship. I keep going back every year expecting them to treat me better. Yeah, and I end up—
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:10]:
they're different this time.
Jason Caine [00:05:12]:
Yeah, but this year my expectations are pretty low. Yeah, but then once the season starts, I'll be very hopeful.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:17]:
Okay, people should follow you on Instagram during football season because that's some of the most raw, authentic Jason Caine content that people get.
Jason Caine [00:05:25]:
The thing is, Atlanta Falcons fans all of us act like that online. Like, it is our brand. Okay, on TikTok, people are like, you need to follow Falcons fans because we are hilarious when we lose. And it is true, we have made our brand being hilarious when we lose.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:41]:
Is there like talk— I don't know if this is like Atlanta. I know a lot of places are like all into like their team being cursed. Is that talk about Falcons?
Jason Caine [00:05:49]:
I believe our team is cursed. It's actually called the Curse of the Church Lady. So when our new stadium was being built, there were two churches that were on the property where the stadium now resides. And the team paid those churches so they could buy their buildings and tear them down to build the stadium. And there's a lady being interviewed and they ask her like, hey, how do you feel about your church moving? And she said, I can't believe we're tearing down our church for a second-rate football team. They're never going to win anything.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:16]:
And lo and behold, the curse of the church lady.
Jason Caine [00:06:20]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:21]:
That's funny.
Jason Caine [00:06:22]:
Yeah, it's sad.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:23]:
Yeah, well, hopefully they paid them enough money to go buy great buildings.
Jason Caine [00:06:26]:
They did, but the problem with these are like historical churches, you know? Oh, not 200 years old, but 100.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:31]:
Like beautiful buildings.
Jason Caine [00:06:32]:
Beautiful buildings.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:33]:
Oh yeah, yeah, that's terrible.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:36]:
That's really— that's a PR nightmare.
Jason Caine [00:06:38]:
Black churches that were like involved in the civil rights movement and everything.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:42]:
Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:43]:
Why would we do that? There wasn't another area where we could have played?
Jason Caine [00:06:48]:
Plenty of area space.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:49]:
Oh my gosh, that is crazy. I know. Okay, well, that's terrible. Do you have an unpopular opinion?
Jason Caine [00:06:56]:
This is a sports podcast?
Leslie Johnston [00:06:58]:
It could be.
Jason Caine [00:06:58]:
I have an unpopular opinion.
Leslie Johnston [00:07:00]:
Or you have two, actually.
Jason Caine [00:07:01]:
I have two. The first one is this. Now, everybody don't get mad. I think 99% of people who have an assistant don't need an assistant. I don't have an assistant. I could have one, but by the time, like, if they're booking a meeting for you like this, we just text back and forth. I didn't say hit up my assistant to find it on my calendar. That's a whole lot easier than me telling the assistant, the assistant tells you, then she tells me, and it's so unnecessary.
Jason Caine [00:07:29]:
That's a very unpopular opinion.
Leslie Johnston [00:07:31]:
That is an unpopular one.
Jason Caine [00:07:33]:
I don't need somebody to book my flights for me. No, I know my login. Yeah, I know what flights I want to take. Yeah, it's just that I don't know. I don't really know how to use an assistant. This could probably really be a me problem. I should explore this with a therapist.
Morgan May Treuil [00:07:45]:
But no, I think it's a good thing.
Leslie Johnston [00:07:47]:
This is a good thing.
Jason Caine [00:07:48]:
Also, I don't want anybody to read my email.
Leslie Johnston [00:07:50]:
Yeah, do your assistants read emails?
Jason Caine [00:07:51]:
Oh yeah, for sure.
Morgan May Treuil [00:07:53]:
Yeah, a lot of them do.
Jason Caine [00:07:54]:
Some people need assistance, right? That's it, 99% of people. So if you're offended, remember, you're probably—
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:00]:
you might be the one.
Jason Caine [00:08:00]:
You definitely need it.
Leslie Johnston [00:08:02]:
You have friends who don't know what their passwords are.
Jason Caine [00:08:06]:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, I, I know what friend you're talking about specifically.
Leslie Johnston [00:08:10]:
They need this. Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:11]:
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that because to me it's like the amount of time it takes you to go tell your assistant, talk them through how to do it all.
Jason Caine [00:08:20]:
Right.
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:21]:
You could have just done it yourself faster. Right.
Jason Caine [00:08:22]:
Right. No.
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:23]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:08:24]:
Do you also feel like, what, what generation are you?
Jason Caine [00:08:27]:
I'm a millennial.
Leslie Johnston [00:08:29]:
Right. Which we are too. How old are you?
Jason Caine [00:08:31]:
41. Older millennial.
Leslie Johnston [00:08:33]:
I do feel like we grew up in a time where we figured out all of these. We just know that we are very comfortable with doing all of these things. We're comfortable with our airline points and our logins and our loyalties and yeah. Calendar, all this stuff. It takes us 2 seconds what I feel like it takes the generation above us 20 minutes to figure out. So maybe that's part of it too. But I agree with you. I mean, we have an admin on our team who just does stuff for the ministry, but she doesn't really do stuff for us individually.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:06]:
And I feel like it would be so much more time.
Jason Caine [00:09:07]:
Yeah. Like somebody hits me, their assistant hits me up. I'm like, just text me, man.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:11]:
You text me yourself. Don't send your assistant to me.
Jason Caine [00:09:15]:
Why are we making this so official? Now they can have great reasons to have them. Maybe I haven't figured out how to use one, but come on.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:21]:
No.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:22]:
If you had an assistant.
Jason Caine [00:09:23]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:23]:
You're forced to have one.
Jason Caine [00:09:24]:
Uh-huh.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:25]:
What would be the best thing that they could do where you're like, oh, this would be great?
Jason Caine [00:09:29]:
That's, that's, that's what the problem is. I don't even know what I would ask them to do.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:34]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:34]:
And then you have the stress of like feeling like you need to give them stuff to do.
Jason Caine [00:09:38]:
Right. Like interns.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:40]:
Yeah. Yes. That's exhausting. You got to have a plan. Especially interns who are like, I'm trying to get the most out of my experience. And I'm like, the more you want the most, the less I have for you.
Jason Caine [00:09:51]:
Don't put pressure on me. Definitely unnecessary thing, right?
Leslie Johnston [00:09:56]:
That's so funny.
Jason Caine [00:09:57]:
But it could feel like pressure.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:58]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:59]:
Well, also, I feel like if I were to lose control of my calendar, that would stress me out.
Jason Caine [00:10:02]:
Right. Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:03]:
Like, I want to know my calendar. I don't want to have things added that I don't know about.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:07]:
That stresses me out.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:08]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:10:08]:
The flexibility is the thing that I like.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:11]:
That's great.
Jason Caine [00:10:11]:
Like, even this, we were supposed to film this podcast 3 different times this week. Mhm. And I just like being flexible.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:17]:
And you did this last time too. I know you came on, you're like, you guys moved this podcast around 3 different times, and we're like, thank you. Yep, we're so organized.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:24]:
That's very true.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:25]:
That's great. What was your second one?
Jason Caine [00:10:27]:
I don't remember. It's okay. I, I honestly have no idea.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:31]:
Was that the more controversial one?
Jason Caine [00:10:32]:
That was the more controversial one. I forgot the second one. It'll come to me sometime.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:36]:
I'd rather have like a— well, because I'm in events, to me an assistant would be more like having just someone on my team that I can give stuff to, which would be awesome. But I'd rather have like a life assistant, like, oh, can you go make— can you go return this thing for me? Or can you go do like this stuff? You know, like that type. Actually, I like doing returns.
Jason Caine [00:10:53]:
I love doing returns.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:54]:
That's my hobby.
Jason Caine [00:10:54]:
It's a pastime in my family.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:56]:
You like doing returns?
Jason Caine [00:10:57]:
Love it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:58]:
I agree.
Jason Caine [00:10:58]:
I feel like I'm making money.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:00]:
Talk about that.
Jason Caine [00:11:00]:
Yes, I know I'm not, but it feels like I am.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:03]:
It's free money afterwards. You're like, this is spending money now.
Jason Caine [00:11:06]:
Yeah, it is. Literally, like, in my family, my siblings, my mom, we we take things back. My mom's nickname is Take Back Tabitha. Like, her name is Cynthia, but we call her Take Back Tabitha because she loves to return stuff. And it just— it's in our DNA and our genes. Like, we take stuff back and we'll send a picture receipt, like, look how much money I just made.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:22]:
That's amazing.
Jason Caine [00:11:23]:
We know we did not make money.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:25]:
Yes, that's funny.
Jason Caine [00:11:26]:
But it felt like we did.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:26]:
It just feels like a world of opportunity opens when you return something.
Jason Caine [00:11:29]:
For real.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:29]:
You're like, this is now spending money. And I'm— Morgan will have stuff in her closet with like tags.
Jason Caine [00:11:34]:
That's crazy. You're losing money. I physically cannot inspire myself to get up and go return Amazon returns are the best.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:41]:
They are the best. And the Whole Foods process is actually so satisfying.
Jason Caine [00:11:45]:
Yeah. And, and we had, um, the Amazon store, Amazon Fresh store, right next to my house. You can do your returns there, but they just closed down.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:52]:
No, rest in peace.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:54]:
See, if I had something right next to my house, I'd be like, oh, I'll— I can walk over and return this.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:58]:
You can. It's the UPS, UPS store.
Jason Caine [00:12:02]:
Yeah, you do. Either, either got it in you or you don't.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:04]:
I don't have it in me.
Jason Caine [00:12:05]:
I have it in me.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:06]:
I don't know.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:06]:
But also, I feel like Benji is your budget person. So I feel like he— I mean, yeah, if I had someone who was like, you know, I'm overseeing all the finances, then I probably wouldn't return either, because I'd be like, I'm not stressed.
Jason Caine [00:12:18]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:18]:
But since it's me that cares about the money, I'm like, I want to return it, because then I know I have money.
Jason Caine [00:12:24]:
Yeah. A life assistant to do laundry. That would be a cheat code for life.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:29]:
Laundry. Yeah. It's less of an assistant. It's more of like a utilities person that can cook when you don't want to, but not cook when you do want to. Watch your kids when you want. It's like someone Someone who can just knows how to do all of it, but only when you don't want to do it.
Jason Caine [00:12:41]:
I think you think people are called au pairs.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:43]:
Au pair.
Jason Caine [00:12:44]:
But we're too poor.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:45]:
Yeah, too poor for an au pair.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:48]:
Just a pair. I don't need the au part.
Jason Caine [00:12:51]:
I remember the first time somebody told me they had an au pair, I acted like I knew what they were talking about. I had no clue.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:55]:
Are au pairs always from France?
Leslie Johnston [00:12:57]:
Well, I think the idea is they're always from France.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:00]:
Don't they like fly over here and they're Yeah. If they come international, the, the thing online right now, I think especially in Utah, they call 'em mommy's helpers. That's so, so it's like they take care of the house while you get to watch the baby. Oh, you know, so it's like you're getting time with your kid while they do everything that I guess you would do if you didn't have kids.
Jason Caine [00:13:23]:
That is a level of wealth I aspire to.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:26]:
I wanna change the name of it though.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:29]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:30]:
Mommy's Helpers is not it.
Jason Caine [00:13:31]:
That's a terrible name.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:32]:
That's a terrible name. But maybe, yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:34]:
Wait, here's my hot take.
Jason Caine [00:13:35]:
Okay, let's hear it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:36]:
Babysitters these days are, which may I, this is a little harsh.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:42]:
Oh, let her rip.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:43]:
They're doing nowhere near the amount of work that we did when we were babysitters when I was younger.
Jason Caine [00:13:48]:
Explain.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:48]:
When I was 13, I was babysitting 3 children and when the, the minute they went to bed, I cleaned the kitchen, I vacuumed the floors. I was a full house cleaner, right? And I got paid like whatever normal babysitters got paid. And now I feel like babysitters are like, oh, I'm getting paid like $25 to watch TV. And we didn't watch TV. It was like we had to entertain. We were like mopping, holding babies.
Jason Caine [00:14:18]:
That just means you were a good babysitter.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:19]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:14:20]:
Because we had people watch our kids when they were younger and some were great. They would do that. They clean the kitchen up. They do activities with your kids. And then there were some who were just there in the house for safety, you know. Yeah, get everybody out in the fire.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:31]:
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, for sure. We have the greatest babysitter right now. We're about to lose her, and she does everything like that without being asked.
Jason Caine [00:14:39]:
That's awesome.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:40]:
It's amazing. It's actually great. She did our dishes yesterday, and we usually— we've only been like, hey, just do Waylon's stuff, don't do our stuff. And then she did dishes, and I was like, she's amazing. But we're about to lose her.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:50]:
That is amazing.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:51]:
He's going to radiology school.
Jason Caine [00:14:52]:
The audacity.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:53]:
Which, I mean, she should do that.
Jason Caine [00:14:54]:
People try to improve their lives.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:56]:
Yeah, kids just be babysitters forever.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:59]:
And we can't even pay her full time, so I'm like, go, go do your thing.
Jason Caine [00:15:02]:
That's great for her.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:03]:
It's so great for her.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:04]:
That is awesome.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:05]:
Um, okay, business time.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:07]:
Business talk.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:08]:
Um, we heard the single greatest devo from you last week.
Jason Caine [00:15:12]:
That's extreme.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:13]:
It is extreme, but it was really good.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:14]:
Yeah, it was so good. We're like, you got to come on the podcast.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:17]:
It was really good, and you have to come on the podcast and talk about it. And it was Well, you, you set it up.
Jason Caine [00:15:22]:
Yeah. So everybody kind of knows this viral video right now with the McDonald's CEO trying a burger.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:29]:
Yes.
Jason Caine [00:15:29]:
He has the new Arch burger. And the video I thought was AI the first time I saw it.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:34]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:34]:
Really?
Jason Caine [00:15:34]:
Which, by the way, here's my second unpopular opinion. AI— this may be not unpopular— AI content is going to kill social media because there was a time where you would see a video on social media that something outlandish, somebody fell or tripped and you laugh because you know it's real.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:49]:
Yes.
Jason Caine [00:15:49]:
But so many times you get sent these videos now and you're laughing and you look in the comments, you're like, oh, this is obviously AI.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:54]:
Right.
Jason Caine [00:15:54]:
And it just takes the humanness out of social media. So that's going to be the thing to kill social media. However, so the McDonald's CEO tries the Archburger. He takes— he's like, this product that we have— he just does not sound like a human being. And he takes the smallest bite possible, the smallest bite. Like he's just going through the motions. Clearly does not eat McDonald's on a regular basis. Probably had just come from some 5-star restaurant.
Jason Caine [00:16:17]:
They asked him to shoot this content. Hey, it's going to humanize you, make you look real. And the opposite happened. And the internet blew up about it. People were talking about how he doesn't eat the burger. So every CEO of every other burger company started eating burgers or whatever, eating whatever their product was. And I was just talking to people in ministry and making the point that it's a problem in ministry when you're serving a meal you're not willing to eat. Yeah, that was the whole point of the devo.
Jason Caine [00:16:42]:
Basically, as ministry leaders, if we're part of the church and we follow God and we tell people to have faith, we got to make sure that we're living that life as well.
Leslie Johnston [00:16:50]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:16:50]:
Not living a life of hypocrisy where we're serving a meal, we're serving, you know, we're showing people how to have a relationship with Jesus and we don't have one ourselves. And that can happen to us in ministry. It can happen in real life. You know, as Christians, we are called to live a certain way. And we can get to a point where we're preaching about Jesus and talking about Jesus and telling people about Jesus, but we're not willing to do the things that he calls us to do. Yeah. And I think in life we got to be careful when we get to that place where we are serving a meal that we're not willing to eat. And that was the setup for the whole thing, specifically for ministry workers, just trying to make the point we work here at a church.
Jason Caine [00:17:27]:
And if you work here at a church and your passion begins to die, that's a dangerous place to be.
Leslie Johnston [00:17:32]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:17:33]:
And it can happen to all of us. All of us can lose passion. I think it's it would be bad for me, or not truthful for me to say that I've always been passionate over the 21 years that I've been in ministry. No, there are moments where I'm serving a meal that I'm not willing to eat as well. And if that happens, you got to figure out how to get it back.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:50]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:17:51]:
So what was cool about your— when we were listening to it, we were like, obviously super good for us as church staff members, but also we were listening to it from the lens of somebody who loves God and loves the church and someone who's maybe been in the church for the long haul in a serving position or whatever. And it is very easy, especially in unhealthy environments, to grow really apathetic and even negative, cynical. I think your dad says something like the only quality of us, what does he say? It's something about the only incurable, irreversible thing for a staff member at Bayside would be cynicism. It's like once you reach the point of cynicism, it's like, I have nothing left for you. It's irreversible. And I think that's a really good point. And when we were talking about what your devo was setting us up for is you had 5 litmus test signs that you've lost your love. Was it for the church?
Jason Caine [00:18:46]:
Right. 5 signs you lost your love for the church, you lost your love for God. 5 signs you are sick of people. It could be 5 signs for any of these things. And so the first one was you stopped being moved by what used to move you.
Leslie Johnston [00:18:59]:
You.
Jason Caine [00:18:59]:
You stop being moved by what used to move you. So for example, if you're a ministry worker, when you first start working in ministry, you just got this fire and this passion, hopefully. When you first become a believer, you got a fire and a passion to tell other people. You hear stories of life change, you hear, you see people get baptized and you can't help but tear up. You go through, you do communion and you're reminded afresh of what Christ did for you. And those things should move your heart in a certain way. And I think what can happen over time is the things that moved you that you saw as miracles from God or the work of the Lord can no longer move you anymore. And that's when you've got to a place where you might be in danger of having lost your love for the church.
Leslie Johnston [00:19:41]:
Yeah, that's really good.
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:42]:
What do you think? Because I've been that before where, like, I'll watch baptisms and I'm crying, or I'll hear of a story and I'm like, that is incredible. And then something happens along the way. Where all of a sudden I start to get a little skeptical of like, oh, is that person's story like legit? Or like I hear of, um, there's been times where I'll hear of like, you know, students doing something and I'm like, uh, is that performative? Oh, is this what— like I start to get cynical, but I don't know why. Like, do you know what the—
Jason Caine [00:20:11]:
like, where's the point where it starts to shift where you can, you know, stop it in its tracks before it's Yeah, I think if you think that of every story you hear, like, of course there are going to be some things that we hear that aren't truthful and you're going to have doubts about it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:26]:
Yeah, for sure.
Jason Caine [00:20:27]:
But if you start doubting everything, like, that's another one of the points that you're skeptical, you're skeptical of stories of life change.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:33]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:20:33]:
Yeah. If that's every story of life change you hear, you're like, that didn't happen. That didn't happen.
Leslie Johnston [00:20:39]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:20:39]:
You're probably at a place where you kind of have lost that, that first love.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:42]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:20:43]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:20:43]:
When you're not trusting at all.
Leslie Johnston [00:20:45]:
What do you think the reason for that is? Is it just longevity and time and hurt? What are the things that get you there faster than other things?
Jason Caine [00:20:54]:
I think what can get you there are a few different things. One, that you hear a story of life change and then you find out it wasn't real. And then that makes you doubt every story. So there's a loss of trust that happens. It feels like somebody manufactured something. And so that kind of incident makes you become skeptical, and then you're looking for loopholes in every single story that's been told. I think that can happen. I think just your own mental state, like if life is rough for you at the moment, you know, the saying hurt people hurt people.
Jason Caine [00:21:28]:
I think that's a true statement. If you're hurt, for sure, then everything is going to be hurtful to you. Yeah. So over time, you just can become anesthetized to life change around you, and you become skeptical of everything, and it just happens when you, when you're in close proximity to something.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:44]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:21:44]:
Um, and you see it over and over and over again. Um, you could just become jaded by it, unfortunately.
Leslie Johnston [00:21:51]:
Yeah, no, totally.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:53]:
Which is, which is probably a good reminder because to me, I feel like I'm coming out of that right now. Like, I feel like for a little while, just a lot of not great things happened, like, in my family and with people that I loved and you kind of start to get like, wait, is God actually doing something? Like when you first see a path where you're like, oh, I could totally see God working this way. And then it goes a totally opposite direction. You start to question, but then you start to see, I think it's like, you gotta see it through. You can't stop at the part where it gets hard or the part where you get discouraged. It's like, okay, I've gotta trust God enough to trust him even when I don't see it. So then that helps me not be cynical of, you know, good things that happen to—
Jason Caine [00:22:39]:
Yeah, because genuinely, life is full of ups and downs. Jesus promised us, in this world you will have trouble. But that doesn't help with the reality of actually facing trouble. When you face some trouble in life, it makes— it can make faith extremely hard and difficult.
Morgan May Treuil [00:22:52]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:22:53]:
But that's what I think shows maturity in believers— excuse me— is that you're able to go through hardship and endure it well.
Leslie Johnston [00:23:02]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:23:02]:
I mean, that's the story of The New Testament, right? Paul and all these other disciples experienced extreme hardship, but they remained faithful. I think in our world, and the temptation for me is I experience hardship and I look for loopholes to not be obedient. And it's hard to remain obedient when you've seen God work in ways you don't want him to work. But that's why we're not God.
Leslie Johnston [00:23:25]:
Yeah, that's one of the things you said I think is important to touch on. Is, like, let's say you hear about life change, and then you realize that that wasn't true, or even like the stories you've heard where you trusted somebody, you followed somebody, and then they have some kind of moral failure or something happens where the rug kind of gets ripped out from under you. That was like our experience. When my parents came to faith and they started bringing us into the church, I was probably like late elementary school. And the pastor that brought my parents to faith, probably 6 weeks into our experience, it came out that he was embezzling millions of dollars from the church. Insane. And it literally almost closed the church's doors, obviously, because when people realize that their tithing isn't safe, then they're going to leave in the masses. And my parents, plus basically all the families of the elders, were the ones that decided to stay.
Leslie Johnston [00:24:17]:
And it was kind of an act of God because I'm thinking back to that version of my parents and I'm thinking, You just gave your lives to the Lord really, and then this happens. Wouldn't this be like a faith sinker, not a faith builder? And I think it's true that the closer you get to the church, the more aware you are of human frailty. And I actually think that's one of the qualifiers and maybe characteristics of a person who is called to work in ministry is that the frailty of human beings doesn't freak you out too much or make you doubt the goodness and redemption of God. If you can't see past human failure, then working in ministry is going to be a really hard thing for you to do in the long run.
Morgan May Treuil [00:24:58]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:24:59]:
So for the people that don't work in ministry, but they're in these spaces where they're getting closer and closer to the church where you're starting to see behind the curtain just a little bit and you start to see more of the stuff that makes you just hard and hard and hard. I don't know. What do you say to those people? Because I don't feel like that's a reason to not get close.
Jason Caine [00:25:18]:
Sure.
Leslie Johnston [00:25:18]:
Right? I want you to volunteer more. I want you to be around more. I want you to press in more and be a part of things. But there is that reality that the closer you get, the less magic. It's like being backstage at Disney World, right? It's like you're going to see how it's underneath the cruise ship. All the machinery's there. It's not as magical as it is on the outside.
Jason Caine [00:25:37]:
The constant thing that we have to remind ourselves, the Bible says we have this treasure in earthen vessels, the treasure of people spreading the gospel or being in ministry. And earthen vessels, scripture is making it clear, that these are human beings. And I think anytime we put some people on a platform or we make them the hero rather than Jesus the hero, it is going to make our faith a little bit rocky because human beings are always going to disappoint you. Here's the thing, though. That pastor was embezzling money, and your parents probably came to Christ because of a message that he preached.
Leslie Johnston [00:26:10]:
Yes.
Jason Caine [00:26:10]:
So God will use people even while they are doing all sorts of things that go against him. And one thing that I remind myself is my gift is not for me. My gift is for other people. So God will let you use your gift because the gift is to serve the other people, even while you're not living up to the standard that he has set out for you. And I think if you've experienced that where a pastor has embezzled money or has got caught in an affair or the variety of things, ways that people can fall, it's just to remind yourself that Jesus is the hero, not that person. And that also doesn't mean that you stay in a place that's morally corrupt or where a person is doing a certain level of wrong, but it does mean that you have to keep your relationship with God, keep trusting the church, maybe not that particular church, but maybe, you know, find somewhere else to go. I'm always like pleasantly surprised when people do experience a pastor doing something that's hurtful, fallen, or a ministry leader or whoever, and they stick with the church. Yeah, because it would be easy to be like, you know what, I'm out.
Jason Caine [00:27:12]:
And a lot of people have made that decision to say that they're out. But just because you have one bad experience doesn't mean that that's how everybody is.
Leslie Johnston [00:27:18]:
It's almost like you have to reframe those moments to be not, okay, my pastor fell, now I'm going to get out or lose faith or become very skeptical. Maybe those moments are more like, this is an invitation from God to reckon with the fact that is there any part of me that really loved and worshiped this guy or this girl, this person, or even this institution more than I actually loved the God that was in the earthen vessel. And I don't think that that's not a bad moment to reckon with. That can be even a God moment of what do I actually think about all of this and who do I actually love versus having it be something that breaks your faith. It can break it or it can build it, like all things. But yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:01]:
That's so good.
Jason Caine [00:28:02]:
Go ahead. I was going to say one of the things that you notice as you read the New Testament about all these churches that Paul wrote letters to, they all had major problems.
Leslie Johnston [00:28:09]:
Problems.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:10]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:28:10]:
Yes. And so if you think you're going to be at a church and it's not going to have a problem, then you're not living in reality. There are going to be problems at every church. That doesn't mean they have to have a scandal on a grand scale, but there will be things that aren't done right because human beings are being used by God and human beings are flawed.
Leslie Johnston [00:28:31]:
And that's part of the beauty of it. You just have to be able to see that.
Jason Caine [00:28:36]:
Yeah. This is not an excuse. This isn't excusing egregious behavior. No, right?
Leslie Johnston [00:28:41]:
Not at all.
Jason Caine [00:28:41]:
Don't, don't hear me say that at all.
Leslie Johnston [00:28:43]:
No.
Jason Caine [00:28:43]:
I think another, um, just another sign, one that I really want to talk about, is, uh, sign that you're falling out of love with the church: you're more energized by critique than you are by vision.
Leslie Johnston [00:28:53]:
This is good. And I think this applies to— this applies to all, yes, all people, not just pastors. This is really good.
Jason Caine [00:29:01]:
Yeah, we are in the society we live in today Everyone critiques everything.
Leslie Johnston [00:29:06]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:29:07]:
No one enjoys anything. Like if we're watching a movie, we're watching it to critique. If we're watching an athlete, we're watching them to critique. Just get to the place where you can just enjoy something again and not expect it to be perfect. Like the example I used the day I gave this Devo, there's a basketball player in the NBA named Bam Adebayo, and he scored 84 points in an NBA game. The third, second most points ever. Wow. He passed Kobe Bryant.
Jason Caine [00:29:31]:
And people's immediate reaction was to minimize the fact that he scored all of those points. They were like, well, the team he played against is the worst team in the league, or they fouled a bunch at the end so he could score all those points. Instead of just enjoying this man scored 84 points.
Morgan May Treuil [00:29:45]:
Yes. Like, you give him some credit.
Jason Caine [00:29:48]:
There are plenty of people in the NBA.
Morgan May Treuil [00:29:50]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:29:50]:
Only one has scored that many points. It might be 83 points. So somebody's probably critiquing me right now.
Leslie Johnston [00:29:54]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:29:55]:
And I think there's something about critique that energizes us for whatever reason. I don't know what it is.
Leslie Johnston [00:30:00]:
What is that?
Jason Caine [00:30:01]:
It's, there might be a level of jealousy that's there, right? We see somebody who is winning in life in some way and we're like, well, they only got that because of X, Y, and Z. We see them thriving and it's like we have to tear people down. It is so exhausting. You see it online, you can watch an amazing video about a mom and her children and it's a little funny video and the comments are just, why did you have the baby there in the first place? Why? Just the critique in society today. Is exhausting and disgusting. And I think it just shows that people are not well.
Leslie Johnston [00:30:36]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:30:37]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:30:37]:
If you don't have the ability to enjoy the smallest things and smaller things in life.
Leslie Johnston [00:30:44]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:30:45]:
Then what are we doing? And I think we're looking for areas. I think we look for reasons to be pissed off. I can say that on the podcast.
Morgan May Treuil [00:30:52]:
Yeah, of course.
Jason Caine [00:30:53]:
I think we look for reasons to be pissed off. And I fall into this trap too. I will watch a video on something and be like, I bet somebody in the comments said X, Y, and Z.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:01]:
And I go straight to the comments.
Jason Caine [00:31:03]:
Yeah. And I'm looking for the comment to make me mad when I should have just enjoyed the video and keep scrolling.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:07]:
For sure.
Leslie Johnston [00:31:08]:
Sometimes the comment section is the best place in the world.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:10]:
Oh, yeah, I know. Sometimes the comment section, you're like, I'm here for the comments.
Jason Caine [00:31:13]:
Are beautiful. And then other times it's just brutal.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:17]:
Oh, it's so brutal. You'll see.
Jason Caine [00:31:18]:
Brutal.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:19]:
I watched a video literally yesterday that this guy was like, the key to getting viral on social media is he's like, mispronounce a word.
Jason Caine [00:31:26]:
Oh yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:26]:
And then one girl commented, she's like, I purposefully mispronounced Shein or whatever that brand is. And she goes, 5.4 million views of people in my comments. She doesn't know even how to say this, whatever. And it's like, people love it.
Jason Caine [00:31:40]:
There's this urge to correct. It's really like, that's what your middle school kids do. They want to correct because when I correct, I feel like I'm I'm on top of the world. Yeah, I'm something, I'm somebody. Like, come on now. So the point was, yeah, a lot of people are fueled by critique and they're not fueled by vision.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:02]:
Yes.
Jason Caine [00:32:02]:
And so here at Bayside, you know, we're talking about the next 30 years of what our church looks like. Uh, Ray, who's our founding pastor, this man is a vision-forward thinker. Um, I think I said in the devo, like, he's allergic to negativity because he's so vision-forward.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:19]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:32:19]:
And I think A lot of times people want to huddle up and critique what the church is doing instead of having some sort of vision for what it's doing. You know what, it's a whole lot easier to critique than it is to build. Yeah, it's a lot easier to critique than it is to build. People on social media have amazing followings and people will go strictly to tear them down instead of building something.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:42]:
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Caine [00:32:43]:
If you want to critique something, shut your mouth and go build. That takes a lot of work. Yeah, it takes work to build. It takes vision to build. It takes vision to actually do some work. It takes nothing to critique. Yeah, if you think about it, it takes— what does it take? You watching something and responding to it. That's not— that's nothing.
Jason Caine [00:33:04]:
No, be quiet and go build something. If you don't like the way somebody else is doing something and winning, the good news is you have the opportunity to go do it the way you think can help them win.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:14]:
Yeah, there's a really popular podcast, which we don't endorse this podcast, but this girl gets shredded online all the time. Like, she's the worst interviewer in the world, like blah blah blah. But I'm like, she's literally got billions of followers. And, and I literally at one point— and I'm usually not a comment person because it's like you're getting in the mud with pigs.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:34]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:35]:
And I'm like, I get on there one time though, and I'm like, does any of these people commenting actually have a podcast?
Jason Caine [00:33:41]:
Right?
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:41]:
Have you guys ever tried to interview someone? Have you ever done that yourself? And they're all experts at something they've never done before.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:47]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:48]:
And I'm like, sure, is she maybe not the best ever? Maybe. But also you're not doing any of that, right?
Leslie Johnston [00:33:53]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:53]:
Like, like show me your podcast and then I will listen to your podcast.
Jason Caine [00:33:56]:
100%.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:57]:
I, this is a hot take on why I think we do this and I, I'm paying attention to it because obviously I found myself in the same situation organizationally. I think sometimes we critique because we think our critiquing of somebody else or something else validates or secures our position in this other area, or maybe it validates our ministry's success. Because if theirs is just a little bit worse than ours, then that makes us feel like ours is winning or better. And that's a really, I mean, regardless of whether you work in a church or not, that's a really dangerous spot to be where you're judging your success based off of the success or failure of something else. And that's at the heart of that. So that's, I mean, I think that's just a thing to look out for. But I think we would miss a big moment here if we didn't ask you this question. For people that are following along with this, is a huge trend right now to go church shopping online and then to critique them afterwards.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:59]:
And obviously there is some legitimate stuff to exploring churches and not going somewhere because you don't align with something that you think is essential. There's— there's— can you speak to that whole movement?
Jason Caine [00:35:12]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:35:12]:
And let me, let me get positive and negative.
Jason Caine [00:35:13]:
Let me give a disclaimer that feedback is beneficial.
Leslie Johnston [00:35:17]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:35:17]:
Um, I think critique, um, can be— if you're critiquing something with no intent to help, yes. Or if you're critiquing something with no intent to add value to that person, and that's probably not the right place or right thing to be doing. Yeah, I think critique and feedback is valuable because we all can get better. But Shortypants32 is not going to— you're not going to change somebody's opinion who has millions of followers, right? Like, you're just, you're just putting yourself out there because you're a negative person.
Leslie Johnston [00:35:48]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:35:48]:
On to the church shopping thing. So I've heard about this trend. I haven't seen it myself about, I guess they go to churches and then they give a review on TikTok like we're going to a restaurant.
Leslie Johnston [00:35:57]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:35:58]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:35:58]:
It's like, it's like the Michelin.
Jason Caine [00:36:01]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:01]:
Like, yeah, like I went to this church.
Jason Caine [00:36:02]:
I like this.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:02]:
I didn't like that. Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:36:04]:
Yeah, it's, it's, that's, that's weird to me. Um, clearly I guess there's some benefit to it if you're helping people find a church. I don't know what the person's intent is, right? I have no idea what their intent is. I do know if you're looking for a church, you want to go somewhere where you enjoy, but that should be personal between you and the Lord, and you should go where the Lord calls you to. And no place you're going to go to is going to be perfect. Yeah. So I have no, no idea what their intent is on giving said reviews.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:34]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:36:35]:
If I'm— let me just— if I've given them the benefit of the doubt, they're saying, hey, I'm finding churches in this area and I'm going to genuinely help people. And I think that can be a good thing.
Leslie Johnston [00:36:42]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:36:43]:
But if it's for virality, like you want to go viral, or I want to be known as the church critiquer, where is that in scripture?
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:52]:
Yeah. How is that helping the world and critique churches?
Jason Caine [00:36:54]:
How is that helping? The kingdom of God grow? How are you building disciples? And even the word church shopping. What? Shopping? We're not shopping. If we distill church down to a place that I'm shopping and receiving something from, but I can't give something to, then again, I think we're missing the mark. I think when it comes to church, we're called to be the body of Christ, meaning that we contribute to the Christ. We contribute to the church. And I think church consumption is a problem. We don't want a church full of consumers. We want a church full of people that are on fire for God, being the priesthood of believers, bringing the kingdom of God to earth.
Jason Caine [00:37:35]:
And, you know, I think we need to listen carefully when Jesus said, I must be about my Father's business. Is your Father's business giving reviews on churches? Stop the madness. So I've never looked at a review of our church on Yelp. I've never looked at a review of our church on Google. I've never looked at one on TikTok. If I see the video, I quickly move on because I don't— frankly, I don't care.
Leslie Johnston [00:37:57]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason Caine [00:37:59]:
It's not helpful. Now, if somebody who's a part of our church and involved in serving, if they're a part of our church and they have some feedback for us, we receive feedback all the time to make us better from someone who's contributing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:13]:
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Caine [00:38:14]:
But if you are not going to contribute to advance in the kingdom of God. If you're just going to church to receive and not to give, I think you should probably check your heart and ask yourself, how is this aligning with what scripture has called and told me to do?
Leslie Johnston [00:38:27]:
Yeah, that's great.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:28]:
That is really good.
Leslie Johnston [00:38:29]:
I think that's the perfect way to address it. And I think just not that this would even reach their For You page because their algorithms are different maybe, but I'm just thinking, what do not Christians think when they come across that kind of stuff online. It just, to me, it's that kind of stuff where it's like, you want to go public with something that you think is helpful, sure. You want to go public with what feels like kind of like family business sometimes in a way. It's like, what does this do for the non-believer that is trying to figure out what they think about all of this? It presents this like, it's the same issue that I have when people get online and they start debating in-house stuff outside of the house. It's like, what does this do for the non-Christian to pay attention to your debate about whether or not women should be in ministry. To the world, what does this do? And that kind of stuff, I just don't—
Jason Caine [00:39:19]:
It draws people in, I'm sure, Morgan. Do we want to go and be involved in that fight? No.
Leslie Johnston [00:39:23]:
Right, exactly. You're like, let's go do this disunity.
Jason Caine [00:39:25]:
How is this affecting our witness? I think is the question that we should ask one another. And I also think Jesus made it clear. He says, by this they will know that you are my disciples, that you love one another. And I think we've changed the end of that verse. They'll know my disciples that you win every argument. You were right. You go on social media and you like— that's not helpful for the kingdom of God. And this goes toward any business, any endeavor, anything that you're doing, man.
Jason Caine [00:39:52]:
Have vision. Don't have critique. And if you have critique, then say, you know what, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do it differently. But you don't have to— in order to build the tallest building in town, you don't have to tear somebody else's down.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:04]:
Yes.
Jason Caine [00:40:05]:
There's enough space for everybody to win. That's really good. So you'll never hear me bash another church in our city. Ever, because I hope— I want them to experience success. I may not agree with everything they do. You would never know because I would never tell you.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:16]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:40:17]:
Um, now somebody's like, well, what if they're teaching, um, what is it called, heresy?
Leslie Johnston [00:40:23]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:40:23]:
Or what if they're— that's the Lord's servant. I will let the Lord deal with them.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:28]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:40:29]:
If I don't have a relationship with them, then I have no right to speak into what they're doing. Yeah. That is the Lord's job. I'm gonna be about my Father's business. I'm gonna build and do what I'm called to do, and I'm not gonna be involved in all of that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:40]:
I feel like Christians a lot of times forget that in the Bible, it literally talks about the church being the bride of Christ. And I'm like, the way you talk about the bride of Christ is crazy. Like, the nonsense and the stuff that just gets thrown around, I'm like, you really forget that that's what the Bible says it is. So I'm not sure I wanna piss off God talking about his bride.
Leslie Johnston [00:41:03]:
It reminds me of when you used to back Talk your mom and your dad would come over the phone and be like, oh, and then all of a sudden she wasn't your mom. She was his wife.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:12]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:41:13]:
And it was so bad. And I'm like, this is the same kind of the reference.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:17]:
Yeah. It's, and it's not to say you can't give critique and you can't like in the right way, but to me, I think it is so popular right now. I find with so many people to love critiquing the church and finding the loophole and finding the thing that they don't like. And I mean, we see it right now with this campaign we're doing. It's like we're raising money and $8 million we're trying to raise to go to all these projects around the world, advance the kingdom, expand campuses, do all this stuff. And I'm like, what are you guys mad about? I know this is just really honest about me.
Jason Caine [00:41:51]:
Is it the hospital in Nigeria?
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:52]:
That's pissing you off?
Jason Caine [00:41:53]:
Or is it the sex trafficking we're trying to stop? Which one of those things don't you like?
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:58]:
No, literally. People are like, well, I'm just going to take a break. I'm not even coming to church, or I'm going to get online and talk about how they're talking about money. And it's like, the thing we hear a lot, I just want to go to a church that teaches the Bible. All I want. And I'm like, okay, well, would you like me to take out all the parts of the Bible that talk about generosity? Generosity, which actually, because the Bible talks a lot about that. So you want a church that talks about the Bible, but doesn't actually live by it or make you live by it. And I don't know, I get fired up on this, but to me, I think I used to get, obviously all of us can be critiquers.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:32]:
We can all fall into this. I'm not saying I'm perfect at that. But when it comes to the church, I think because I've grown up and I've seen a lot of the ups and downs of that, I think this year I feel like it really hit me where I was like, I used to get so mad. Like I'd read a review or I'd read something about my dad or I'd read something that's so nonsense. We even got some this weekend. I was like, I'm like, this is such a stupid thing someone wrote. And I'm like, you know what though, actually they lose. Like, if you are the critiquer, if you're the judge, or whoever you are, you actually lose.
Morgan May Treuil [00:43:05]:
Because living a life of getting in on the vision, living for something bigger than yourself, building something, that's where like the joy of life is. And if you want to sit and critique and sit on the sidelines and just, you know, do absolutely nothing with your life but critique everybody else all day long. Yeah, I'm actually fine with that because, yeah, get out of the way. Like, you're not, you're not being a part of it. You're not going to do anything. And that's actually okay with— I'm like, I— that's okay with me. Like, you— I don't want you to do that, but it doesn't need to affect— I think if you are somebody with vision and you want to be a part of things, don't let the critiquers keep you from doing it.
Jason Caine [00:43:45]:
Yeah, I learned this, uh, from a wonderful poet. His name is Clifford Harris. He said, pay your haters no attention. It's T.I., he's a rapper. Um, and I probably heard this when I was in high school. Pay your haters no attention. What is the point of giving them attention? It's gonna stop you from doing what you have to do. That's why I don't read reviews.
Morgan May Treuil [00:44:03]:
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Caine [00:44:04]:
What am I reading? This review is gonna do— it's not gonna do anything for me but make me upset.
Leslie Johnston [00:44:09]:
Yep. Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:44:10]:
And I got to protect my mental, right? Like, I got to just go for it. There are people who I invite critique from.
Leslie Johnston [00:44:17]:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:44:18]:
They're people who've built something before, people who are invested and involved, people who have been part of my life for a long time. Like, those are the people that I want to hear from.
Leslie Johnston [00:44:28]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:44:28]:
Who have some stake in the game.
Leslie Johnston [00:44:30]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:44:31]:
But from a random person online, I don't need to hear from you. Yeah. So I don't read it. And it has worked out well. Just don't pay any attention, because if you do, you won't— if, uh, there's a, there's a quote, I can't remember who says it.
Leslie Johnston [00:44:46]:
T.I.?
Jason Caine [00:44:46]:
No, not T.I., somebody else. And it's basically like, if you don't want to be critiqued, do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:44:54]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:44:55]:
But then even if you do those things, you're gonna be critiqued, so you might as well do something. Yeah, say something and build something. So I think we got to just be careful with, um becoming so critical that we can't have forward vision for the future.
Leslie Johnston [00:45:09]:
Yeah. I can't say that this is a perfectly tested theory, but the reason why I would always want critique or invite critique from other leaders who have built something is, you know, with them, you're getting something that's actually measured and good. Because when you've led something, you know how unnecessary some things that are said are to your building and to your leadership. So I would say most often you can tell when someone is a leader or just simply a follower based off of what kind of critique they give and when they give it. Because leaders who have built something will be way more measured and will give you way much more valuable content because they know what it's like to be at the top of something and to have the impossible burden of carrying that and then measuring other people's opinions all the time.
Jason Caine [00:45:58]:
And it's amazing how you don't know what a certain position feels like until you get in that position.
Leslie Johnston [00:46:03]:
Yep.
Jason Caine [00:46:04]:
So, you know, a lot of people critique parents who don't have any children. Yeah, they're like, my kids will be no screen time, they're gonna eat the healthiest food, they're gonna be in bed on a schedule.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:16]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:46:16]:
And you're like, do you have any kids? No. Okay.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:18]:
You're like, all right, we're all in survival mode.
Jason Caine [00:46:20]:
Just wait.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:21]:
That's me.
Leslie Johnston [00:46:21]:
I love to give advice and I don't have kids.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:23]:
I'm like, hey, listen.
Jason Caine [00:46:24]:
Yeah, yeah. When I have my— yeah, you don't, you don't know. You don't know. And so you don't know what it's like to be in a certain position until you're there.
Leslie Johnston [00:46:31]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:46:31]:
I don't know the pressure of being a senior founding pastor of a church.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:35]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:46:36]:
I have no idea what that feels like.
Leslie Johnston [00:46:38]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:46:38]:
I know the pressure of being a lead pastor at a campus, but of making sure the whole thing— I have no idea what that's like. And there are probably battles that are being fought. There are being battles. There are battles being fought on the level above you that you have no idea what they're like. You have no idea the level of stress, pressure that a person is experiencing. So just be careful. And that's why I think the Bible makes it clear we should pray for our leaders, pray for those who are in authority, because it's hard, man. It's hard.
Leslie Johnston [00:47:05]:
Yeah, that's really good. And I would say safe assumption, if the leader is healthy, to assume they are giving themselves a fair amount of critique.
Jason Caine [00:47:18]:
Oh yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:47:19]:
Oh yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:19]:
They're probably their worst critic.
Leslie Johnston [00:47:21]:
The thing that they're lacking is probably encouragement.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:24]:
Yeah, totally.
Leslie Johnston [00:47:25]:
So it's like, yeah, if you think that they're missing critique, so you should add it. Yeah, they probably got that covered. They know what's happening.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:32]:
They know what's happening. There's also, I feel like something to be said in this conversation about seeking out critique. I think we live in a world right now where there's probably so much that's happening online, in person that you just start to go, okay, I don't want any feedback.
Jason Caine [00:47:46]:
So I'm not going to ask for it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:47]:
I'm not going to take feedback. And I feel like there's a big culture right now of like, which some of this is good, but it's the anti-mom guilt, anti— especially if you're a girl, if you're not a girl's girl, because you can't critique something. I feel like we have somehow passed over into the realm though sometimes of, well, everything I do is okay, everything I do is right, whether I'm a mom, whether I'm whatever. And people are like allergic to feedback. From good people and people that actually care for them. So I feel like, and I have to remind myself that is like, not all critique is bad.
Leslie Johnston [00:48:22]:
No.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:23]:
Like I can get, like if Morgan had something, I, I could like, I should be able to take that because I know Morgan loves and cares about me.
Jason Caine [00:48:30]:
Right.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:30]:
And same for other people that we should actually be inviting good criticism in and asking for it. Because then I think that helps you when you do get critiqued by someone who shouldn't be critiquing you.
Jason Caine [00:48:41]:
Right.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:41]:
Because then you can recognize, you're like, no, no, I actually know from this person, they've already kind of corrected me in a healthy, good way. So I actually can walk into a bigger ring of people and feel more confident. Yeah, maybe.
Jason Caine [00:48:53]:
So the people who have already commented and said, no, you guys need feedback, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is the part of podcast we hope you listen to because none of us are saying we don't want feedback.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:04]:
No. Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:49:05]:
I just don't need critique from someone who has no knowledge of who I am and what I'm going through in my life.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:10]:
Yes.
Jason Caine [00:49:10]:
That has no involvement in my church. Like, I don't need that from them. And I think we should invite feedback in every area of our life. If you want to get better, you have to have people who can give you feedback. Like, I mean, when I preach sermons, there are certain individuals that I send my messages to because I want to hear from them. They're people who I trust and respect, and I know they're going to give me honest feedback. One of those being my dad. I mean, I get the feedback from him in real time after every service, right? But if it wasn't my dad and somebody was doing that to me, I would cut them off.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:39]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason Caine [00:49:41]:
You don't know me.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:42]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:49:42]:
So yeah, you have to embrace feedback. None of us are perfect.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:46]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:49:47]:
And if you don't embrace feedback, you are— could be headed down a dark path that leads to destruction when someone could have warned you.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:57]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:49:57]:
And could have gave you some critique that, um, that helps you. I think, uh, there's a proverb. I'm gonna chop it up right here. I'm going to mess it up. It's something about the wounds of a friend, kisses of an enemy, and wounds of a friend. You know what I'm talking about?
Morgan May Treuil [00:50:11]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:50:12]:
Look it up real quick. It's a proverb. And the basic thing of a proverb is a real friend will tell you hard things, and it may feel like a wound to you, but it's going to help you. And an enemy multiplies kisses. In other words, they flatter you.
Leslie Johnston [00:50:28]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:50:29]:
As if everything is perfect.
Morgan May Treuil [00:50:30]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:50:30]:
And you need real friends to give you some real feedback in life. What is it, Morgan?
Leslie Johnston [00:50:34]:
Proverbs 27:6, wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses.
Jason Caine [00:50:39]:
Yeah. Wow. I chopped that way up.
Leslie Johnston [00:50:42]:
Yeah. No, no, you didn't. That was pretty much it.
Jason Caine [00:50:44]:
Yeah. I had the words there, just the wrong order.
Leslie Johnston [00:50:46]:
No, that was great. I heard Megan Faith Marshman on Sadie Robertson's podcast, and she was saying that either she said this or she heard it from someone else. You can judge whether or not you are the person to give the feedback by asking yourself, do I plan to be with them through them putting this feedback into action and then onto the other side of it?
Morgan May Treuil [00:51:06]:
That was really good.
Leslie Johnston [00:51:07]:
If you are not— if is that, is that right? The right reference? Yeah. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:51:10]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:51:10]:
Cuz if that's not true, then you're not the person to give it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:51:12]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:51:13]:
Give it to some— have some— not, not have somebody else, cuz then you're gossiping, but like let somebody, let somebody else do that if you are not willing. And for what was his name, Shorty Man 33 or whatever his name was.
Jason Caine [00:51:23]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:51:24]:
It's like you are not in their life. Post this moment, post this comment. So don't get it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:51:29]:
That really does make you go, yeah, I guess I wouldn't say that. If I'm not going to be here for the long haul with you on this, then I don't need to say it.
Jason Caine [00:51:35]:
That's very good advice.
Leslie Johnston [00:51:37]:
Were we missing some of the other ones?
Morgan May Treuil [00:51:38]:
Yeah. What else do you all think?
Jason Caine [00:51:39]:
We've hit on a lot of them. You're skeptical of stories of life change. You've allowed routine to replace intimacy. So this again, we're talking about how do you know you're losing your love for God, or how do you know you're losing your love for the church? You've replaced routine with— excuse me, you've replaced intimacy with God with routine. And this is just about going through the motions, right? I'm reading my Bible, but just to check off, check mark. I'm praying maybe before I eat, but not really praying any other time in my life. I'm showing up to church on Sunday, but no expectation that God is going to move and anything spectacular is going to happen. I've allowed just the routine of my life to be a ritual, and I'm not seeking true intimacy with God where I can be changed, where he can change me, where transformation can happen in other people's lives.
Jason Caine [00:52:32]:
And there's this expectation that God is going to show up. And then, so for people who work in ministry, we all know how to put on a good program. We can do that in our sleep if you've been there. But are you expecting God to show up in some ways and do some things. And if you get to the point where it just becomes a part of your routine and it doesn't— you're not really seeking God, you're not really relying on God, then you might be getting into a place where you've lost your love, you've lost your fire, you've lost just your commitment to doing what God has called you to do. I think another big one for ministry people is you treat this as a job and not a calling.
Leslie Johnston [00:53:08]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:53:10]:
In the context of ministry, If this is just your job, you're going to clock in and you're going to clock out and you're not even going to think about it. If this is your calling, it will consume you. Like, you will be at night praying fervently that God shows up in somebody's life, praying for someone's marriage to be impacted, praying that for Easter coming up that people are going to be saved and they're going to show up and their lives are going to be changed. But if you treat it like a job, it's bare minimum. I can do it or I cannot. I can show up or I cannot. I don't really care. You're apathetic about what's going on.
Jason Caine [00:53:42]:
Man, the reason I got in ministry, I was called to this. This is not a job for me. If it was a job, I would have quit a long time ago because there's a lot of other jobs I can go get and be a lot more lucrative and have a lot more free time. But this is a calling that I feel like God has put on my life. And so because it's a calling, I'm going to treat it as such. I'm going to give it my all. I'm going to have passion for it. I'm not going to give up when it gets hard.
Jason Caine [00:54:06]:
No. So if you get to a place where you treat this as a job and not a calling, it's a dangerous place to be.
Morgan May Treuil [00:54:11]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:54:12]:
It reminds me of the conversation, the first point that you said about you're going through the motions and you're not doing intimacy. It reminds me of the conversation that we had yesterday in sermon prep about passion too. And I feel like the— my brain is all— scrambled eggs right now because there's so many good things you just said. One of the things that is like a good asterisk to that too is like, how would you balance out the statement of like, you're going through the motions, you're not doing intimacy anymore with those moments where you're like, I'm just not really feeling this right now. I know that I need to keep showing up and like the— because the disciplines exist for the purpose.
Jason Caine [00:54:52]:
Correct.
Leslie Johnston [00:54:53]:
So for the person that's in the spot where they're like, I'm just holding on and I'm doing all this stuff. I want it back, but I can't get it back.
Jason Caine [00:54:59]:
There are seasons where it is going through the motions and you got to show up and you got to keep there. I'm talking about extended periods of time or like decades of just going through the motions. Listen, there were COVID. That was strictly an exercise in just showing up. And sometimes just showing up is all you got to give. That's all you got to give. But you should be praying that God gives you that fire back.
Leslie Johnston [00:55:23]:
That's great, right? Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:55:24]:
Like, if you get to the point, like, I don't even think I can get the fire back. You're in a dangerous place. It's kind of— it reminds me like the time when my wife and I, we first had our twins. For the first 18 months, it was just survival mode. And there was no— we did not enjoy the marriage. There was no dating. It was horrible. And a friend of mine said, you got to start dating your wife again.
Jason Caine [00:55:41]:
I didn't even want to do it. And I did it. And over time, as we did that, the love came back. So sometimes just showing up and doing the right things can lead to the fire coming back. But I think what I'm saying is that if you are in a decade-long, 7-year-long period of time where there's no fire, man, you probably have lost—
Leslie Johnston [00:56:03]:
Or no desire to get the fire back.
Jason Caine [00:56:05]:
Because that's part of what the going through the motions thing is like. That's what it is.
Leslie Johnston [00:56:09]:
You're allowed to not feel something. You're not allowed to not want to feel something.
Jason Caine [00:56:13]:
Correct.
Leslie Johnston [00:56:13]:
And I think that's the thing. That's the perseverance part of it.
Jason Caine [00:56:17]:
That's very true. If you don't have the desire to get the fire back, that's And you might have to switch things up.
Morgan May Treuil [00:56:24]:
If you're in a rut, whether you're in ministry or you serve or whatever, sometimes the ruts I get into, if I'm not leaned in enough or if I'm more worried about what time I get there and leave and making sure I have a balanced life, sometimes that can get me out of it where this last season of ministry, it was— Oh my gosh.
Jason Caine [00:56:45]:
Very intense.
Morgan May Treuil [00:56:46]:
Very intense. Long hours, long weekends. And I have never felt more close to God, the church, leaned in, and feeling like I came out of that being like, wait, I actually am way better after really leaning in and being close with people. So maybe sometimes it's like the world tells you, and maybe it's your season, it depends on your season. Sometimes there are seasons you need to take a step back, you need to whatever, rest more. But then I think there's some seasons if you're in a funk and you're like, Man, I have no desire. Maybe you need to actually join another thing, lean into a small group.
Jason Caine [00:57:22]:
Do something that requires some faith that without God, this is not going to happen.
Morgan May Treuil [00:57:26]:
That's great. Exactly.
Jason Caine [00:57:27]:
What we've been doing for the past, I don't know, 6 months, 2 years, 3 years. This is an exercise in faith. It's something that requires us to have God at every turn. And it's been exciting. I've been way more prayerful in this season than I have been in other seasons because this is Without the Lord, it's not going to happen. So you got to have a desire to get the fire back. When I was talking about the solution to if you've lost your fire, I just read Revelation 2:5-6, and it's about the church in Ephesus. And this is what it says: Consider how far you've fallen.
Jason Caine [00:57:57]:
So just admit where you are. It's okay. I've lost my fire. You got to say that. Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come and remove you from your lampstand. But you have this in your favor: you hate the practice of iniquity. So here's the thing.
Jason Caine [00:58:09]:
If you've lost your fire, the way you get it back— I think Morgan drilled on it— might have to do something different. But I think the first step is just admit where you are. Like, God, I'm losing that fire. Yeah, man, I don't, I don't love the church right now. You got to just admit where you are, and God can handle that. You ain't got to pretend like everything is well. Yeah, like life is perfect. That's— I'm so anti-pretend.
Jason Caine [00:58:34]:
You're gonna know exactly how Jason Kanye feels on pretty much every subject.
Leslie Johnston [00:58:38]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:58:39]:
Just be honest with where you are. God can handle your honesty. Read the Psalms if you think that he can't. It's great. And if you've lost that fire, like, God, I want it to come back.
Leslie Johnston [00:58:48]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:58:48]:
Return to the things you first did. What were some of the things that when you were on fire, when your faith was on fire, that you were doing?
Leslie Johnston [00:58:53]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [00:58:53]:
And then you can get it back. But make sure you're fueled by vision. What's ahead of me that I can do? What's something that I can do to affect the world and see some life change? And I think you'll get it back.
Morgan May Treuil [00:59:03]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:59:04]:
I think go get around new Christians too.
Jason Caine [00:59:07]:
Oh my goodness.
Leslie Johnston [00:59:08]:
To the point of interns, it's like they're a lot of work. And yet there was one week, couple weeks where we were just so busy, so busy. And it was like program after program, retreat was coming. It was all this stuff. And we had one of our interns walk in and he's like, we don't pray anymore. And my first instinct was like, ew, don't come in here and tell. We got stuff to do. Don't tell me we don't pray.
Morgan May Treuil [00:59:31]:
We're praying.
Leslie Johnston [00:59:31]:
Pick up the laptop and get to work.
Morgan May Treuil [00:59:32]:
Yeah. Go.
Leslie Johnston [00:59:34]:
But it was that moment where I'm like, oh, he's so fresh. I love it in the best way. Like, my instinct was like, he has no idea. My second instinct was, no, you have no idea. Like, listen to the people that are freshest because they're the ones that are closest to the original fire. And it's like, it's being around those people new to ministry. Sure. New believers, don't go poison them with all your stuff.
Leslie Johnston [00:59:58]:
Go get around them and listen to what's setting their hearts on fire. Because that's that first love, back to your roots kind of thing.
Jason Caine [01:00:06]:
Nothing fires me up more than new believers and new Christians.
Leslie Johnston [01:00:09]:
Everything.
Jason Caine [01:00:10]:
For one, I've been saved so long, you can forget what your first love was. I got saved when I was 5 years old.
Leslie Johnston [01:00:17]:
Right.
Jason Caine [01:00:17]:
Somebody might be like, that's too young. No, I remember I got saved at 5 years old. So I've been saved for 36 years now.
Leslie Johnston [01:00:22]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [01:00:23]:
And sometimes you're like, man, is this really working?
Leslie Johnston [01:00:25]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [01:00:25]:
I got saved as a kid. Does this work with adults? And then you hear somebody who was an atheist and they got invited by a friend and they started giving and they gave their life to Christ and they're like, oh, it does work. Yeah, this does have an effect. What we're doing does matter.
Leslie Johnston [01:00:39]:
Yeah.
Jason Caine [01:00:40]:
And that just fires me up. And then the questions that they have, like, I was— you talk to people about reading the Bible, they're like, where do I start?
Leslie Johnston [01:00:47]:
Yep.
Jason Caine [01:00:48]:
And they— you tell them there's a New Testament, Old Testament, what does that mean?
Morgan May Treuil [01:00:51]:
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Caine [01:00:52]:
Who is Paul? Like, I love—
Morgan May Treuil [01:00:54]:
don't start in Job.
Jason Caine [01:00:55]:
People are very— no, don't start in Job, don't start in Genesis. Yeah, the And there's something about getting around those new believers that just adds some fuel to your fire.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:05]:
So good.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:07]:
That's good.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:09]:
That was awesome.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:10]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:10]:
We could do like 3 more hours on that, but we won't because people probably can't hang for 3 hours. But thank you for coming on.
Jason Caine [01:01:16]:
I appreciate it.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:17]:
Thanks for having us.
Jason Caine [01:01:18]:
Thanks for having me. It's been a joy. I won't look at any of the comments on this episode.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:21]:
No need. We will have you come on for a 3rd episode too. And then you'll really know that you're like a staple in the podcast.
Jason Caine [01:01:27]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:28]:
Once I'm 50, probably. If you get a third episode, then you're right up there with Jake Messner on the podcast.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:33]:
And that's what everyone aspires to be, is right up there with him. My dad calls him the love doctor in like a satirical way where he's like, oh, are you guys— because he's like, why are y'all having this guy on so many times? He's like, y'all need to have the love doctor.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:48]:
Oh, that's so funny and gross. It's not good.
Jason Caine [01:01:52]:
Oh, thanks for having me. Thanks, Jason.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:54]:
You are too.
Jason Caine [01:01:54]:
Thanks for coming on. Conversation that y'all are having are important and keep doing, keep up the good work.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:59]:
Thanks, Jason. We'll have you on again. Talk more.
Morgan May Treuil [01:02:01]:
That's right.
Leslie Johnston [01:02:02]:
Thanks for joining us on Am I Doing This Right podcast. Make sure that you like, subscribe, comment, leave a review. I'm just kidding. And then we'll see you guys next week.
Morgan May Treuil [01:02:09]:
That's right. Bye.
Jason Caine [01:02:10]:
Peace.