Morgan May Treuil [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to Am I Doing this Right? We are not in a good spot.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:03]:
We are unwell.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:04]:
We're unwell. Say what you said before we started this podcast.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:07]:
I texted Morgan and I said. Let me just bring it up.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:11]:
Wait, I was gonna say. I was gonna say share what you just said. A second ago. That line that you just said, oh, this is why you shouldn't love anybody,
Leslie Johnston [00:00:21]:
because this is my mental state. This morning, I told Morgan, we're talking about a fearful thing. And I was like, this is why you just shouldn't love anybody, because you can lose them.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:32]:
Words to live by.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:33]:
I also said, man, I miss my irrational fears today because my. The. When the real fears come in that are actually legit, you're like, dang, life was good. When all I worried about was random stuff happening to me that would never happen.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:46]:
Life used to be so good.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:48]:
Gosh, it used to be good.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:49]:
What was your rational fear?
Leslie Johnston [00:00:51]:
My irrational fear.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:52]:
Do you still worry. Do you still, like, worry when you see the lights flicker or dim that
Leslie Johnston [00:00:57]:
you got that I'm going blind?
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:59]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:59]:
Never worry. That. That was. I was afraid I was going insane.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:03]:
Insane.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:04]:
It wasn't even. I was going blind. When the lights. I've told this story before.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:07]:
Yes. On this podcast.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:09]:
Yes. That when there was a period in time where I. My vision was going in and out, like, dark, light, dark, light. And. And then one day, I'm at the kitchen table. This was years ago. And I just burst into tears. And I'm like, guys, there's something wrong with me, because my vision's going in and out.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:25]:
And Christy's like. And I'm like, it just did it again. And she's like, leslie, I think there was a storm, and the lights in our house have been flickering.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:35]:
She's like, that's real.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:36]:
She's like, that's real. I see that, too. And it was, like, the greatest relief I've ever felt.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:40]:
Like I've been healed.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:42]:
I've been healed.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:42]:
Even though you weren't sick. It's crazy. Once you have a baby, which maybe some people do this before they have babies, but for me, I've noticed it after having Waylon, that you rehearse in your mind the worst possible scenario. So, like, if Waylon's in the kitchen in his bouncer, and I'm chopping an onion, in my mind, the knife somehow becomes dislodged from my hand, does a few flips and spirals and, like, slices off his toe. He's across the room. There's no shot, like, I would. It would have to be very precise and exact. Or like.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:17]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:18]:
I'm walking down the stairs somewhere with him in my hands and I like in my head, hang a toe, take a tumble. And like, it's like literally every. You're driving, same thing. Like, I'm. I'm constantly rehearsing the worst case scenarios and with creativity, like cinematic creativity.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:37]:
Is that what they call. Call postpartum anxiety?
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:40]:
Oh, yeah, probably.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:41]:
Yeah, probably.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:42]:
That's probably a huge part of it.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:43]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:44]:
But it is exhaust. I'm like, I've never seen these images in my mind. Oh, yeah. Because you can't do anything.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:48]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:49]:
You can't do anything normally ever again. You're just like, all right.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:51]:
It's just always like that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:53]:
Always.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:54]:
Wow.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:54]:
Every time that I touch him, hold him, take him somewhere, it's like, I
Leslie Johnston [00:02:58]:
think about that sometimes when I'm holding him and I'm walking around your house because you kind of got like slippery floors if you have socks on.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:03]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:04]:
And I'm like, we all need to get grippy socks.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:05]:
Because we all need grippy socks.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:07]:
I'm like, if I fall now, in my mind it's like more like if I fall and drop. Waylon, I just like could never forgive myself. Even if you were fine, I think I, like everyone would be like, that's the baby dropper. Like she.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:21]:
You're branded for the rest of your life.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:23]:
She drops babies.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:24]:
That is.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:25]:
How horrible is that?
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:27]:
I used to think that way about your house. Your parents house.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:31]:
Huh.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:32]:
I used to think every time I get in my car at your parents driveway, I need to triple check my surroundings. Because if I run over Max.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:41]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:42]:
I will never forgive myself. And y' all will never. And you. And you would never speak to me again.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:47]:
I would speak to you again.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:48]:
No, you wouldn't. I know. Maybe not anymore now that you have Ryder, Max's dog water over there. But if it was Ryder. Yes, a hundred. 100%. So it's like. Yeah, but that's not a way to live.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:59]:
I would talk to you again. So it would just be different
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:05]:
forever. We are not going to say what we were talking about. Because there's. Because this is part of the problem.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:11]:
Yeah. We're not going to Fear monger.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:12]:
No fear monger. Let's ask Chad for a definition of fear mongering.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:17]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:18]:
Like, I could probably describe to you what I think it is, but I would like an official definition.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:23]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:24]:
Can you define the term fear mongering? Question mark. Chad says fear mongering is the deliberate use of fear, alarm, or worst case scenarios to influence how people think, feel or act. It often happens when a person, group, media outlet, organization or leader emphasizes threats, sometimes exaggerating them, oversimplifying them, or presenting them without enough context in order to gain attention, control behavior, win support, sell something, or shape public opinion. And the reason why we're defining that term is because honestly, every day that you turn on the news, you're being fear mongered about something. Because that's how the world markets, right. Like you market medicine by creating fear of headaches. You market like insurance by fear of like, something happen. Like, I don't know if you've seen these ads, but like it's like life insurance policy ads on Hulu and it's all these women that are like, I never expected to become a widow, but I'm so glad that I got life insurance.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:29]:
And I'm like, who got the widow to get on the commercial and talk about how she just lost her husband totally, but she's glad that she had life insurance. So it's like, and obviously there is some good stuff to that of like, yeah, you never know what could happen. So it's like if you should be wise and safe in planning for the future.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:47]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:48]:
However, it can also create frenzy and stir up a bunch of stuff that nobody needs. And we today, we're literally just talking about something in the media right now that is causing stress, health anxiety for people and what we're supposed to do with that because we have had experience in this department before, lots of experience, lots of fear experience.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:13]:
Okay, before we get into it, because I do want to talk about, I was having this debate with somebody today is like, what's the difference between like having healthy fear and like being informed and, but not freaking out. And then what's the difference between like, okay, I want to have like live with a healthy distance from fear mongering, from taking information and like blowing it up out of proportion. Verse, like just putting your head in the sand and acting like nothing's happening.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:44]:
Yeah, you know, such a good question,
Leslie Johnston [00:06:46]:
so we should talk about that. But I'm curious, what give, give the listeners instead of an unpopular opinion, what's like a irrational fear maybe you've been dealing with recently or in the past? Like a funny one. It doesn't have to be super serious.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:59]:
This actually doesn't feel so irrational because I feel like this could happen. But it's, it's all of my teeth falling out and not just them falling out, but me swallowing one of them. Oh, and then it ripping my esophagus open, like, tearing it open on its way down, and then you die. That's my current fear. And the reason why I'm scared of that is because I have permanent retainers on the top and the bottom. So if one of these falls out and it takes the retainer with it, there's metals scraping down my esophagus.
Leslie Johnston [00:07:29]:
You're going to swallow a massive retainer.
Morgan May Treuil [00:07:31]:
In my sleep, maybe in my sleep. If it's attached to my tooth, I
Leslie Johnston [00:07:35]:
don't think you're gonna swallow a massive retainer.
Morgan May Treuil [00:07:37]:
I just had some dental work done, and I realized that I think this is where it started because I had to go get some cavities filled. Yeah, I'm off for getting more information than that. But I had to go get cavities filled because my mom. My mom and dad told me not to talk about this in the podcast because they think I'm gross in this podcast, and they think that my. My hygiene is associated with them somehow.
Leslie Johnston [00:07:59]:
So anyways, it's a reflection on them.
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:02]:
That's what they told me. They said that you don't talk about your hygiene, your. Your, like, dental issues, because you talking about your hygiene is a reflection on our parenting and we don't want to be associated with you, basically. So I'm like, whatever, but at the dentist. And I have veneers. So I think I've always had, like, any time that I get stressed, my stress dreams are always about my front teeth falling out.
Leslie Johnston [00:08:25]:
Yeah, that's very normal, actually.
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:26]:
Very. I think it actually means something like the teeth falling out dream means something like, across the board for people, a
Leslie Johnston [00:08:34]:
certain type of stress.
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:35]:
Yes. And so that was and has been a fear, but now more so because I went and had dental work done, and you feel, like, them scraping on your teeth and how fragile everything feels. And that's just my current fear is that one's going to fall out. I'm not going to know. I'm going to swallow it. The retainer is going to scrape my esophagus open. And then I would die.
Leslie Johnston [00:08:58]:
That's horrible.
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:59]:
Yeah, it's not good. What's yours?
Leslie Johnston [00:09:02]:
I mean, I know it's irrational, so saying it's not gonna happen doesn't actually help, but I don't think you're gonna swallow your retainer. I'd be very surprised. Maybe a tooth.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:10]:
Yeah. But you could survive that.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:13]:
Yeah, you could survive that unless you think about it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:19]:
Wait, what's yours?
Leslie Johnston [00:09:20]:
I don't know. Maybe I'll choose one from a past thing. I was afraid one. Okay. You know, you have your swallow, you're like, swallowing thing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:35]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:36]:
Morgan's always afraid that she's not gonna
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:38]:
be able to swallow, and then I'm
Leslie Johnston [00:09:39]:
not able to fear mongering people. This is all irrational people.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:43]:
Yeah. Maybe they feel seen by this.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:45]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:45]:
Also.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:46]:
Which.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:46]:
I've been mumbling my words recently, which also makes me think I might be developing als. Just letting you know, my great grandmother died of ALS and I probably. Yes. It's horrible.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:59]:
Yeah, that's really, like.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:00]:
That's not irrational. That's rational. You should go get checked.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:04]:
I've not heard you mumble at all.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:06]:
I just did it twice. You heard it. I didn't. I know, because you were looking at me, patiently waiting for me to get the words out.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:12]:
I genuinely don't remember you mumbling.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:14]:
I mumbled a couple times. It doesn't matter. It's your turn.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:16]:
You're very eloquent for thinking you're a mumbler.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:19]:
Because it's not. Because I'm trying to. Because I've got early onset something.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:22]:
That's so funny. For a little while. This was years ago, I was afraid I was, like, swallowing too much.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:31]:
What do you mean?
Leslie Johnston [00:10:32]:
I just couldn't stop.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:33]:
Oh, you couldn't stop swallowing?
Leslie Johnston [00:10:36]:
Like, every time I thought about it, I was like, I feel like I'm Like, I'm. I'm gonna choke if I don't swallow.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:41]:
Yes. Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:42]:
I don't know if that sounds weird
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:43]:
to talk about, but when was the last time you went to the dentist?
Leslie Johnston [00:10:46]:
See, I just swallowed because I'm thinking about it. And then I was like, what if I can't stop?
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:49]:
Right.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:49]:
What if I can't stop thinking about it and I keep doing it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:51]:
Have you ever had, like, you've been at the dentist and then they've got this stuff in the back of your mouth and then you have to swallow and you're like. Like, it's like, blah. You can't. And then you. And then you keep swallowing too much.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:01]:
See, that's my. I think that's my problem is, like, at the dentist, they're like, okay, don't. Don't swallow what we're gonna put in your mouth. And I'm like, then don't put it in my mouth. I don't know what to tell you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:10]:
No, no, no. Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:11]:
And then I'm like, I can't. I can't not.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:13]:
I can't not. No, I get that. I. Any anytime that you do Something that you're like, I'll never be able to stop. That's a huge irrational fear for me. It doesn't matter what it is. Something could be happening anytime. I get the hiccups.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:27]:
Oh, I've had that before.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:28]:
What if I have it forever? What if I have them forever? What if they never go away?
Leslie Johnston [00:11:30]:
I looked it up one time and a girl got hit by a like a horse or a donkey in the head and she has unlimited hiccups for the rest of her life.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:37]:
How did that happen? I don't know.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:39]:
It clicked something in her brain and it was like, look it up. She has hiccups for.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:45]:
See, those stories are not good for me to hear because it's like now I'm never. We just avoid all donkeys. Horses of these things we should be avoiding. We should not be riding horses. Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:56]:
You know what's.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:57]:
I just said we should not be riding horses. See, horses are not safe animals or trustworthy animals.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:04]:
Probably true. Well, they're really well trained. They're just like big dogs.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:10]:
They're not big dogs.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:11]:
You know what's helped me with my irrational fears? What is that I just tell myself, this will go like this thought. You can't actually. You don't have the power to actually think about this forever and ever and ever. Like, it will go away.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:23]:
Yes, it will go away.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:24]:
And you'll find a new fear.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:26]:
A new. A new fear will grow to replace it.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:28]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:29]:
Okay, so.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:30]:
But the better thing is because I used to just think. Well, think about a different fear that you had.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:33]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:34]:
Like, and just get your mind off of it. But onto a new one.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:36]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:36]:
And then I was like, no, because then I'm still living in fear.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:39]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:40]:
So then I just thought, actually after some counseling, I was like, yes. Oh, wait, I can't. I don't actually have the power to keep freaking out about this forever and ever.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:50]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:50]:
Like eventually it goes away.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:52]:
So to your back to your question. I was trying to think of what an example was of a smart level of fearfulness.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:02]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:03]:
An example of this would be you shouldn't go walk a back alley by yourself at three o' clock in the morning as a girl.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:13]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:14]:
And there's wisdom in that, like fear or caution. Because there are dangerous things, places and people on planet Earth. Yeah. Same thing for like, you know, jumping off of rocks or cliffs or whatever. It's like there are certain things that it's wisdom to not do them because they could result in injury or death or some kind of, you know, Whatever. Some kind of bad thing. And those things, those are like, moments of fear that are not bad moments of fear because they're like, protected, healthy fear. Healthy fear.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:48]:
But then you're right. There is the difference between, like, those kinds of things versus, like, those memes people used to post where they're like, my body weirdly can't tell the difference between being chased by a bear and fill in the blank. Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:02]:
Getting in front of my class and
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:03]:
doing a presentation or something. Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:04]:
Right.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:04]:
And then, so then, then there's like the whole thing of, like, the Bible says, often don't fear and don't worry, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with Thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And so there is an instruction that you're not meant to dwell on fear.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:20]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:21]:
Of things. So I guess in your mind, if you were to break down the difference between, like, healthy levels of fear in your life and then unhealthy levels of fear in your life, what's. What's the difference? Like, what's the thing that helps you avoid unnecessary hardship or injury versus the thing that maybe keeps you or holds you back from doing the stuff that you are supposed to do, but you're fearful over it. Like, what is that line for you? Or how do you measure that question?
Leslie Johnston [00:14:49]:
I think for me, like, my first thought is asking myself the question, like, am I just trying to control this? Like, to make sure it comes out to the outcome that I want? I think there's healthy fear of especially being a girl and just being like, is this smart or not smart? Like, is the thing I'm gonna do gonna cause harm to me? That's like a healthy fear.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:13]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:14]:
But when you start going, I actually have no control over this thing that I'm afraid of. But I feel like if I can just like, fester on the fear or if I can like control the people around me or the things that I do perfectly, then nothing bad will happen. That's where I think it goes into territory of like, okay, now this is no longer a healthy fear. This is like you just trying to control to make sure nothing bad ever happens.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:38]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:38]:
Like, I think about back in Covid, I would literally come to my parents house and I would drive over there and after they got groceries, I would take Clorox bleach wipes and wipe everything they got down.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:50]:
Same thing.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:51]:
Because I was so scared of. I was not scared at all. Of me getting it?
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:55]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:55]:
I was just scared of them getting it. So it was like, I remember also my sister and I crying on the phone to my dad being like, you can't go to McDonald's to get breakfast in the morning. And he's like, I'm gonna go to McDonald's to get breakfast in the morning. Like, it's like his. His daily staple. And so it goes through the drive thru and we're like, well, you just don't know. What if somebody breathed on something and it was like, it was. So now at the time in Covid, you don't feel like it's irrational?
Morgan May Treuil [00:16:21]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:16:21]:
But looking back, I'm like, I one time bleached wiped my dog. Like I was scared. I now, not his skin, it was
Morgan May Treuil [00:16:29]:
his hair, but he was fine.
Leslie Johnston [00:16:32]:
But I remember like wiping him down. And I do feel like you get to some point where it's like, okay, you love the things you love so deeply and so fiercely that you're like, I will do anything to keep them safe. But yeah, you're right, there has to be a balance.
Morgan May Treuil [00:16:47]:
Like, I think that that's a really wise point.
Leslie Johnston [00:16:50]:
I don't know. Like, but is it wrong to like, bleach, wipe everything? No, but like, I guess. I guess maybe some of it is. Have you surrendered it over to God and been like, you know what? Ultimately, as hard as it is to relinquish control to God, it's like, okay, he knows better than I do and I can do everything I can. But at the same time, if. If you haven't relinquished something over, I feel like the territory you get into in control is way easier to kind of stumble into yes than if you've given it up to him.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:25]:
Maybe yes, probably an answer, but that's just no. I think that. I think the control aspect is really important to point out because I can't remember what the quote was. I think it's Tim Keller might be somebody else. I was reading about it in a book yesterday, talking about how wisdom is more of a. I'm gonna butcher it. So I shouldn't say it, but I think the difference we're talking about here is wisdom and caution. That comes from.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:54]:
Wisdom is the thing in you that is like self preservation. And self preservation is a really good thing. It's the thing in you that reminds your body not to put your hand on the hot stove because it will burn you. So there's like a reality of the world's brokenness and pain and suffering and danger. And it's really good for you and your body and your mind, your whole soul to be aware of those things, because that's part of Survival, right? Yeah. But then at the same time, like, there are people that are so riddled with fear, irrational fear, even, and it spends so much time in their minds and takes up so much space in their brains that it keeps them from doing anything. Like, it's. It's no longer that they're just avoiding dangerous situations.
Morgan May Treuil [00:18:40]:
They're avoiding all kinds of situations, and they're sitting stagnant and, like, unable to move forward or do anything with their lives because of that kind of intense, extreme fear. And so one thought that I had. I love the control litmus test. Like, how much. If you were to ask yourself, how much are you trying to control the outcome? I think that's a really important note. So, for example, with the Clorox wiping your dog thing, it's like. It's a funny example, but it's like, are you Clorox swiping your dog and you're moving on? Like, all right, I did what I could. Now moving on, or are you Clorox wiping your dog and then you're staying in that obsessive, controlling space.
Leslie Johnston [00:19:18]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:18]:
Where you know that you've done all that you can do, and yet still it's not enough to settle your mind. Like, that's probably a good litmus test question. The other thought that I had was, does your worry. Is your worry mobile? That's kind of my thought. So it's like, worry is the biggest problem when it gets stuck. Worry is not so much of a problem when it moves. In fact, in the Bible, there's the assumption that you will have fear and the assumption that you'll have worry. Because God's very clear in telling you not to do it.
Leslie Johnston [00:19:49]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:49]:
So if he's telling you not to do it, there's the assumption that you will do it or that you will feel it, at least. So there's the assumption you will feel fear, that you will feel worry. And then there's God's instruction that you shouldn't sit in it and harbor on it a couple verses that come to mind. The classic Philippians 4, 6. Don't be anxious about anything. But in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God. So people get tripped up when they're like, well, God's telling me not to be anxious, so it's sinful for me to be anxious. No, God's not telling you that it's sinful to be anxious.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:21]:
You can't control your feeling of anxiety. In a fallen and broken world, what you can control is what you do with Your anxiety. So he's saying, don't be anxious about anything, comma, but with everything, by prayer petition, with Thanksgiving. So basically, the instruction is, when you feel it, move it through you into a conversation with God. Don't let it get stuck. That's where it becomes problematic. Same idea is in Matthew 6. Who of you, by worrying, can add a single hour to your life? It's that idea of getting stuck on a thought, an obsessive thing, that you're worried about happening.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:57]:
Something far off in the future that you really can't control. And instead of, like, moving forward towards that thing in faith, you're, like, stuck in worry mode. Another example, last one, first Peter five, seven, Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. It's that same. It's the verb of casting. It's moving, it's throwing. So it's. It's not.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:18]:
It's not that you're not supposed to feel fear or that you can even control whether you feel fear or not. I think the question is, does it move or is it stuck? If it's stuck, that feels like unhealthy fear. Because it's control and a trust issue. If you feel it and you have the ability to move it, then I think that's more of a healthy spot of, okay, I'm feeling this in a healthy way because it's maybe a warranted fear. That's the hard part about, like, having anxiety is that everyone tells you the solution to tell it. Like, the solution to your fear is like, well, that's not gonna happen. Right?
Leslie Johnston [00:21:53]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:53]:
But then the problem is, like, what happens when it does happen? Like, I used to tell my mom, I can't get pregnant because I'm gonna throw up. My mom was like, well, you're not gonna throw up if you get pregnant. Cause I didn't. And I'm like, oh, okay. But then I threw up the whole pregnancy. Right? So it's like, just because someone denying that it's a reality or that it could happen is not the solution. Because what happens when it does? Yeah, but spending every waking moment stuck, like, almost like pre. Preparing for something that you don't know whether or not is going to happen is also not the way to live.
Morgan May Treuil [00:22:24]:
So I think that would be my question is like, if you. If you're dealing with healthy fear, unhealthy fear is, does it move? Yeah. Can it move?
Leslie Johnston [00:22:30]:
That's good.
Morgan May Treuil [00:22:31]:
And are you in the healthy mindset where you can allow it to move? Because if you. If you're not in A healthy mindset where you're controlling or you're practicing, like self reliance versus God reliance, then it might not be able to move and you probably will get stuck in worry over and over again.
Leslie Johnston [00:22:47]:
You know what's funny is sometimes I've found that my fear, like, when I'm fearful of something. Like, I think, for example, my dad had like a little health scare at Christmas time and he was in the hospital overnight, literally, like on Christmas night. And in that moment, like, I felt like I. Obviously, it's horrible to, you know, love somebody and they're in a state where you don't know what's happening and what if they're gonna be okay, all of that. And so. But I feel like somehow when you're actually in a moment where you're dealing with something head on and you're like, this is the moment where the fear is 100% warranted.
Morgan May Treuil [00:23:29]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:23:29]:
And you are in it. But I find myself actually reacting to those scenarios better than some of, like, the irrational, just anticipating something maybe happening or not happening.
Morgan May Treuil [00:23:41]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:23:41]:
Like, in those moments, I feel like I quickly go to God. I quickly am like, okay, I'm surrendering this. I'm praying. I'm constantly praying for this. Not that the fear's not there, but for some reason almost does feel like you're working it out with God and you're like, okay, I'm in this. But for some reason the stuff that feels more irrational, like, that hasn't happened yet or might not, that hasn't happened. I'm not saying it's. It's definitely not easier, but for some reason, that side of fear feels just like you're spinning your wheels for nothing.
Leslie Johnston [00:24:12]:
Like you're kind of in this state of like, oh, no, what if the person I love gets sick? What if, like, something happens to somebody or your child or somebody that you love and you're like, nothing's happened yet. But for some reason I'm rehearsing these things over and over in my mind. And you're right, it feels like there's a difference and maybe we can bring those things to God more. I don't. I just don't think we bring it to God easily because we go, well, it's not really happening right now, so it's like, I'm not. You kind of just like, keep it to yourself and run these scenarios through your head. Yeah, but, but so then I kind of go like, okay, I don't want to be somebody where, like, my head's just stuck in the sand and I'm just like, don't want to realize what's going on. Like, I don't like whether it's in the world, whether it's people that I love.
Leslie Johnston [00:25:04]:
Like things you should actually be.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:05]:
Yeah, you can be stupid. You can be stupid and, and not practice. Good.
Leslie Johnston [00:25:10]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:11]:
Fear or like reverence for the world. And. Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:25:14]:
But I also don't want to be that person that's like, I spent all my time worrying about the worst case scenarios. And then I basically, like, I remember some, sometimes somebody told me they were like, if you struggle with fear of things that like, haven't happened yet, or like worst case scenarios, they're like, you essentially are having to live things that you may never even actually have to live through. And so therefore you're kind of wasting the time in your life. That should be good. And that was very eye opening to me where I was like, I don't want to be, I don't want to be so focused on my fear because I feel like if I control it, then it won't happen. Or I used to, when I was little, I used to think like, well, if I just think about it and think about the fear, I don't think it'll happen.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:59]:
Right.
Leslie Johnston [00:25:59]:
So like, if I can just rehearse it and think about it, then it'd be crazy if it actually happened. But it's like, no, I don't want to live that way though. So it's like, how, how can you separate like your mind from going, okay, I'm, I don't want to, I don't want to have my head stuck in the sand, but I also don't want to rehearse these things that are never going to happen.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:21]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:26:21]:
Because then I'm basically just like, yes. Being miserable, you know?
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:24]:
Yes. I was going to look up a verse. It's the Tomorrow has enough troubles of its own verse. Because that, it kind of reminds me of that. Right. It's Matthew 6:34. Don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Leslie Johnston [00:26:45]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:45]:
And so what. Yeah. What's funny is like you're talking about which I think there's part of us that likes to rehearse things because we feel like if we can rehearse it before we get there, it won't be as surprising to us when we get there.
Leslie Johnston [00:26:57]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:57]:
But to your point, instead of just like living in the now and waiting for that to come later, if it comes, you spend all of your time in your life rehearsing and living into the thing, then once the thing comes, you've been living in the thing for the past six months. If it comes, and if it never comes, then you're just. So there's like a. There's an element of time wasting there.
Leslie Johnston [00:27:18]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:27:20]:
I had this thought, I wonder if there's anything to this. You're talking about the example of being with your dad in the hospital and how you felt more like, I'm good action. Like, obviously you're scared and you're sad and whatever, but there is something about, like when you're actually in the crisis, it feels a lot different than when you spent all that time rehearsing it. Yeah. And I wonder if that's because when you are in the crisis or. Or in the moment when the bad thing that you feared would happen is happening, I wonder if there's the relief of realizing, oh, I'm still alive and I actually do feel the presence of God and this isn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. And I wonder if we struggle with worry so much before those things happen, because we haven't lived in those things yet.
Leslie Johnston [00:28:15]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:15]:
So there's a part of us that wonders, will I just cease to exist when that happens? Or will God's presence cease to exist when that happens?
Leslie Johnston [00:28:24]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:24]:
Will I be able to handle and lead in these? Like, you don't. You haven't lived in the future moment yet. So there's almost like this question mark of will I be able to? Will God be able to? Will I? Will I? Will I? Versus when you're in it, you're living in it. So, you know, okay, I can maintain my cool. Or, okay, God's presence didn't leave me. God's presence totally went before me. God did provide in all these little small ways. And you know those things because you're living into it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:53]:
But before you live into it, you're just guessing. So it's. It's kind of a faith question. Which, and this is not to say that if you have anxiety, you don't have to have faith. I'll be the first one to tell you that both can exist at the same time. Sure. But I do think that in the worrying and rehearsing of something that hasn't happened yet. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:29:12]:
It could be a good, like, journaling exercise or, or prayer exercise to ask yourself, like, is there something that you're, like, struggling to believe about future God maybe that's making you get stuck in rehearsal mode over this thing? Like, are you worried that God Won't show up then. Are you worried that God isn't sovereign then? Like, you know, he's sovereign now, but you're worried that he might, like, leave his post in the future? I don't know. Because. Because you're right. There is something about being in the moment. You know it's going to be okay because you're in it and you're living the hardest part of it. And you're like, okay, I'm okay. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:29:50]:
But before the hardest part reaches you, you have no information about what it will feel like.
Leslie Johnston [00:29:56]:
Yes. No, it's almost like God promises to be there. Not only when you're heartbroken, it's biblical. He's like, you know, and when Jesus. God's close to the brokenhearted. Yes, but so that is so true when you're in. Not that it makes it easy or makes it not fearful.
Morgan May Treuil [00:30:16]:
No.
Leslie Johnston [00:30:16]:
But there is a steadiness, almost like you're holding on to this, like, steady foundation while the wind and everything is going around you. But you're like, oh, I'm still here. I'm still, like, dealing with this. But God is sustaining you through that because he promises he will. So there is something that I think we lack when we fear the future to go. Oh, yeah, I'm afraid that God won't be there, or I'm afraid I won't be able to handle it. And it's like God talks about how he's there for us in those moments, but I don't know if you're just rehearsing fear all day long. Yes, God's with you in that, too.
Leslie Johnston [00:30:54]:
But I just think we forget that God really is in those scenarios when we are faced with something really difficult.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:00]:
So.
Leslie Johnston [00:31:00]:
Good. Yeah. I had another thought on this, too. I feel like there was. I think that Satan, like, loves to make us think that fear is all bad and. Let me finish my thought before we think about this. I feel like Satan is like, oh, well, you're just, like, wasting your life if you're being fearful. And some of it, yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:31:27]:
But I also think there's a healthy level that God actually can use fear to really help you live in the way that really matters. Like, to me, if I never was afraid, I don't think I would. I think I would take a lot of relationships for granted.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:42]:
So good.
Leslie Johnston [00:31:43]:
Like, I would not. If I was never afraid, I would probably take people for granted. I would take my situation. I would take what I have right now for granted. But it's. Sometimes there's moments like, this is Such a small example, but when my dog Ryder ate a bunch of Advil last year and then like went into like the dog hospital or whatever and like, thought he was going to die. And now I'll just look at him sometimes and I'm like, I'm so happy that you made it through. Like, I'll hug him and I'll be like, you're just the best dog ever.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:14]:
Like, I'm so grateful that you're here because I didn't think you were going to be.
Morgan May Treuil [00:32:17]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:18]:
And so I think there's times that fear can be a great teacher of things that matter to you and, and things that you're like, I don't wanna miss out on what's right in front of me. So. Good. But there is an action step of like, you have to put fear to the side and remove it and replace it with, I mean, really, it's with Thanksgiving, which is biblical.
Morgan May Treuil [00:32:38]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:38]:
But it's like, if you can replace fear with Thanksgiving, you will live so much of a deeper life than if you were never fearful in the first place. Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:32:48]:
So good.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:50]:
So I think that's a good reminder for me of like, okay, instead of rehearsing our fears, thinking worst case scenario all the time, can we actually take that and go, okay, what is maybe God trying to teach me through this instead of it just being like, this is all from Satan, I should not be afraid. I should just think about other things. It's like, no, if God's allowing that fear into your life, what is he trying to teach you through it? And what, maybe what blessings is he trying to bring through it?
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:18]:
Yeah, that's what you're saying.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:19]:
What things are you like, oh, shoot. I actually have been like, you know, putting my relationship on the back burner or my. Your kids or your whatever. Your job.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:29]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:30]:
But it's like, no, you actually need to step into like living more fully into that because you have it right in front of you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:36]:
So good.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:37]:
So I don't know. That was a good reminder for me.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:40]:
Let's, let's pause. I have, I have more thoughts and I feel like we could just make this a two parter because it's good. So pause, Pause. We'll see you. See you next week on Am I Doing this Right? Okay, bye.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:52]:
Hey, DM us. Maybe we'll put on our story or something. But dms, if you have any funny, irrational fears.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:57]:
Yes, that would be great.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:58]:
Not anything that maybe you think we could contract.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:00]:
Yeah, yeah. Actually don't share the ones that are like, kind of like, actually, yeah, share them. But. But be vague as big as you. Be as less specific as you can. Okay, pause. See you next weekend. Am I doing this right? Welcome back to mh.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:17]:
We just said if you're. If you're listening right now, we're doing kind of a worry fear episode that's based off of some stuff that we've kind of been recently wrestling with. And so if you haven't listened to the first episode, go back and listen to that one. And then now you're in the second episode, which kind of builds on some of the ideas we talked about last week. But if you don't want to go back and listen to last week's episode, totally fine, you're here. Not a big deal. I'm happy to.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:40]:
Happy to have you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:41]:
Leslie just said something really profound in the last episode, though, that was talking about how not all fear is bad and that sometimes God can use fear. Not that God's the author of fear, but that God can use fear redemptively to help you make the most of your life and your relationships.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:57]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:58]:
And I was just thinking how true that is because. And I'm reading a new book right now called Becoming More Like Jesus by Matt Chandler, and it's a brand new book that he just released and he said, feelings make great passengers, but terrible drivers.
Leslie Johnston [00:35:13]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:35:14]:
And that is so true. And I would equate fear to be a feeling that is kind of like, that makes a great passenger terrible driver. So fear should never sit in the driver's seat because you'll never go anywhere. You'll stay parked in your driveway at home and you'll never move, never accomplish, never do anything and. But a great passenger. Because you're right. There are certain times where the presence of fear helps you live differently. A very practical example is like if you are in the forest and you see a bear.
Morgan May Treuil [00:35:46]:
Fear in you towards this bear is the thing that helps you to like, be big and get away versus lack of fear towards the bear is like all the tourists that I see at these national parks that are walking up to these. Yeah. Bison and trying to pet them. It's like, that's not a healthy fear. And it doesn't lead to your preservation until long lasting life. Healthy fear allows you to walk away from something that could end your life early. So, yeah, same thing goes for the example that you just used. It's like, I'm fearful of Waylon becoming a bad, disrespectful, unhelpful, uncontributing member of Society.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:27]:
And because I am fearful of that outcome, I am going to do as much as I can.
Leslie Johnston [00:36:31]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:32]:
To spend great time with him in his childhood and make sure that we steward and shepherd him as best as we possibly can.
Leslie Johnston [00:36:39]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:39]:
That's a great. That's a great example of how fear can inform you in a positive way versus a negative way.
Leslie Johnston [00:36:47]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:48]:
And so I think we have to, like, get really dialed in on. Fear can inform you and influence you in positive ways, and fear can also inform and influence you in negative ways. And I think it all has to do with the role that fear plays in your life and in your decision making. And so we were talking about kind of the different examples of that, but one of the practical things that we haven't talked about yet is what happens if you are the person that has allowed fear to get stuck in your brain and it feels like it has no way out, and it's kind of like a hamster wheel type of situation. So you're stuck in all of the what ifs.
Leslie Johnston [00:37:32]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:37:34]:
Fear lives kind of. I. I love the. I love the phrasing, the funny phrasing, because I kind of disagree with it. The rent free, like.
Leslie Johnston [00:37:42]:
Yeah, so.
Morgan May Treuil [00:37:43]:
And so is living rent free in my mind, and the. Or something is living, and I don't think it's free. Like, the sentiment is like, you know, it's not. It's not giving me anything back. It's living in my mind. It's giving me nothing back. I had this. This thought yesterday.
Morgan May Treuil [00:37:58]:
We were. We were talking about this, and this is kind of real time, so I don't have answers yet. But yesterday we were in our. Our staff chapel, and I felt like God told me the phrase panic needs permission. And I was like, I don't think that's actually true because I have panic all the time. I've never given permission, and yet it's still there. And then shortly after that, Waylon had a pediatrician's appointment that morning, and they had. I had told Benji, who had taken into the pediatrician's appointment, that I wanted them to look at these two things.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:33]:
And I had a meeting during, and I didn't think that it would become anything. So I went to my meeting instead of the pediatrician's appointment. And. And it was that he has, like, a chin tremor and he has a little leg quiver. And that happens kind of randomly. Like, I haven't really noticed a pattern to it.
Leslie Johnston [00:38:49]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:50]:
And it's reached the point where they're not, like, they're not crazy concerned about it. But it's not normal for this point in his life. And so they're gonna do a neurology referral and we're gonna get his, his everything looked at to make sure that everything's okay.
Leslie Johnston [00:39:03]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:04]:
And my first thought was to spiral about all of the things that could be wrong. Like you know, all the different things that Chad actually chat GPT. I'm gonna give him some credit. He doesn't really fear monger. He's like pretty level headed.
Leslie Johnston [00:39:19]:
Like he knows, he knows that we
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:21]:
can't handle such things. So he, he softballs us and he's like, could be totally normal. Maybe look out for this, this and this.
Leslie Johnston [00:39:29]:
Nothing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:29]:
Give me some more information. Let's figure out. You know, he's like so great. He's like not a fearmonger at all. The news should take some lessons from Chad because Chad knows how to handle us fragile human beings.
Leslie Johnston [00:39:40]:
100.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:42]:
That's when I felt like the phrase panic needs permission really kind of set in for me because in that moment I could decide what to do with it. The fact that the doctor was concerned should lead me as Waylon's mom to a healthy level of fear to which I do everything in my power and in my control to listen to a medical professional and get Waylon the extra help that he needs. Yeah. So like being irresponsible with the fear would be. He's probably fine. We're just not going to do any follow up because he's probably fine. I'm not going to listen to the fear. No, I think you should listen.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:18]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:18]:
To a little bit of the fear and, and allow it to inform some of the. That the precautionary choices that you can make and things that you can take action with. However, for me to get up today and tomorrow and the next day and the next day and live in a constant state of irrational, paralyzing fear that there is something wrong with him, that I have done something wrong, that our whole future is going to be affected by this. Not only does it not have a space, but it's not productive. Yeah. And I do think that there is kind of the practical application point here that I don't think that fear lives rent free. I think that fear, in order to like set up permanent residence in your mind does have to sign a leasing agreement and you get together with it and you decide you can stay here for a long time if you want to. Here's how many like you almost agree to it taking up permanent residence.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:18]:
And I think fear needs to Be more of a passing through guest versus a permanent residence kind of guest. Like, you can't let it sign a lease. It has to be like a quick in and out. I'm visiting for an hour. I've informed you of what I need to inform you of, and now I'm gonna bounce. That's the kind of guest it has to be. And there are times where fear feels a little bit more uncontrollable. And there are times where you have to get with God in prayer and be like, this is the permission.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:43]:
This is the access. This is the amount of time that I have allotted for fear to stay in this particular conversation and about this subject. And now I'm going to force it to leave because I can't live in a way where it's, like, with me at all times because it doesn't do anything helpful.
Leslie Johnston [00:42:00]:
No, no.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:02]:
If I were to, like, allow the conversation of Waylon's, like, leg tremor to live in my brain all day, every day from here until we get it figured out, we would not live in between now and then. I could miss significant portions of his life and his joy and kingdom things and friend things. And, you know, we could not travel, we could not do stuff. We could not live because of this fear of the unknown.
Leslie Johnston [00:42:26]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:26]:
But, so I would say my question to you would be, you mentioned gratitude is a really good practical exercise for this. But I do think that there's, like, a thought replacement training that we have to employ in order for this to be something that we can grow in. Yep. Y. When you don't train your thoughts, then your thoughts will train you.
Leslie Johnston [00:42:50]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:51]:
Yes. So what do we do? What do you do when you've had success with this? What are the ways that you train your thoughts that actually lead to freedom and peace in your mind versus chaos?
Leslie Johnston [00:43:03]:
Yeah. Well, I'll start big picture and then go down to some practical things that I feel like have helped me. Like, first of all, big picture, I feel like if we don't go, okay, in the grand scheme of things, like, how important is this fear? How life or death, how big? And do I really trust God with it? Like, I think I can be someone. I'm not a controlling person. Like, I'm pretty hands off about a lot of stuff in my life, honestly, and I'm decently chill. But there are certain things that I go, oh, but don't mess with this, this and this. Like, these things I hold in. Like, if I can try to control it, I will.
Leslie Johnston [00:43:45]:
Health and safety of my family, the people That I love. Like those things to me, I can get into a mode if like, I feel like something's threatened where I just go like, oh my gosh, I gotta figure this out. I gotta control, I gotta make sure everybody's okay.
Morgan May Treuil [00:43:58]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:43:59]:
So my first stop on like my fear train is like, ultimately, do I trust that God loves me, loves the people around me, is gonna take care of me no matter what? And ultimately, are we all gonna die and go to heaven? Yes. The time on this earth is actually so short. Like, and what I've learned from watching people who have gone through the hardest things is that like, you're right, they still live and they still move on and they still go, wow, I'm seeing God at work in my life. Even when I've gone through hard things. And whether it's a diagnosis or a loss of a family member or something like that, they still somehow God meets them where they're at and gets them through. And ultimately, like, we do have heaven on the other side of this. So sometimes I think we gotta zoom out of our situation and just go, okay. The sobering thing of like, we aren't here forever, so this life doesn't have to be perfect.
Leslie Johnston [00:45:00]:
Like we don't have to have this like problem free life. That's not the goal of life. So I think sometimes to me it's like I have to zoom out and go, okay, let me just like reframe what this life is about and have like a sober mind of how I look at this.
Morgan May Treuil [00:45:16]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:45:17]:
And then I feel like I start to go more zoomed in because that really does help. You can do as many, you know, anti anxiety calming techniques. But if you don't have like your soul right with God of like where you're going and what this life is about, I don't think any of those things help. So good. So good. I think ultimately it's okay, let's get right with God and right in our minds.
Morgan May Treuil [00:45:39]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:45:40]:
And then from there, things that have helped me that are just like, either I've learned it from like a counselor or I've learned it from you or other friends, is like number one. Do you have somebody who you can talk with so honestly about your fears?
Morgan May Treuil [00:45:54]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:45:55]:
And the right person to talk to, like the person who you're like, when I talk to them, they don't feed into that fear. They don't make me feel like I'm dumb for having that fear or they don't make me, they don't make it worse.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:08]:
Yes. Because you're Right.
Leslie Johnston [00:46:09]:
Or they don't, they don't say the things of like, well, it's probably never gonna happen. Yeah, Never helps. No, I think we said that last episode. We're like, this does not help.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:17]:
Totally.
Leslie Johnston [00:46:18]:
Or people who are like, well, you know what? Yeah, that could happen. Or the people who say, well, it could be worse. Like, just those people are a no, they're great for other parts of your life.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:28]:
So true.
Leslie Johnston [00:46:28]:
But you need a person who you're like, when I go to them, I know I will feel better after.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:33]:
And it's kind of a specific person to your personality. Right? Like someone who knows you and knows the things that help and the things that don't. Right. Like, my mom is great at this because in my, like, older age, she's able to be like, that might happen, but here's the silver lining to it. And it's like, not everybody needs a silver lining effect to this, but I do. Like, I need to know that if this happens, there's like positive spin on it. And so it's like finding the right person that can speak reality to you and they can, like, they can help spin it in a way that appeals to the things that you need.
Leslie Johnston [00:47:09]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:09]:
Another example of this would be like, yesterday I got in like, what I was gonna say too is like, if, if you're looking for who, who is the right person that you can bring your fears honestly to and they can like minister to you in the way that you need it, then that probably whoever that person is is probably the same person that you bring your insecurities to and they speak truth to you in the right way for those as well. Like I'm thinking yesterday, my first instinct after getting that news from the doctor that they wanted to refer him to a, to a neurologist. My first instinct after talking to Benji, my mom was to put it in our girls group chat. Because I know from history that anytime that I put a fear in here, these people ministered to me in the way that reminds me of God. But also I put in there my insecurities of like, I'm a terrible mom because I didn't go to the pediatrician's appointment and I'm a terrible mom because I've noticed this for a little bit of time. Did I not bring it up quick enough? And it's cool. The sounding board of I'm gonna put my insecurities, my self condemning thoughts and my fears on a plate. I'm gonna put it in front of these people and then let them speak to it in a way that's outside of me.
Leslie Johnston [00:48:26]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:26]:
Because I can always tell what's rational, what's irrational, what's warranted and what's not warranted based on people outside of me and what they say. Because somebody outside of you can always see it more clearly than you can. You're too close. You cannot see it clearly. But keep going with your train of thought.
Leslie Johnston [00:48:41]:
No, no, that's great. I love that. Because I think people, the right people. I love that you said it's different for everybody. Because some people, like, you know how there's always, like. I feel like the classic tension in. In a couple is like, the girl is like, I have this problem. And the guy's like, let's fix it.
Leslie Johnston [00:48:57]:
And she's like, I just want you to listen to me totally tell me that it's hard.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:00]:
Totally.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:00]:
Sometimes I don't feel like I resonate with that because I grew up with a dad where, like, I would come to him with my issue or my problem.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:07]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:08]:
And he was very like, I'm so sorry. Like, very caring. But then was like, here's the five step things we're gonna do to fix it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:14]:
Like, here's here. I like that. I like that.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:16]:
I'm like, yes. He would just be like, that is so hard. I don't even know how you do it. I would be like, oh, my gosh, this is horrible.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:25]:
Which. That's a personality trait that we have that other people might not have. Like, maybe you're somebody where you're like, I don't want someone to fix that. I just want them to sit with me in it and hear me and feel it with me. Then make sure that you're finding that person.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:36]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:37]:
Because I don't want that.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:38]:
And it doesn't always have to be your significant other.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:40]:
Like, in fact, oftentimes it's not. Which we talked about today. Like, we called. We were talking about how some people, like, don't help us think better about this. They, like, stress us out more.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:52]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:52]:
And then some people. It's like we call Benji. We're like, hey, speak to us about this. Give us some rational, some thought. Like, give us some. Some truth about this. He's like, y' all just need to get over it. Y' all are being dumb.
Morgan May Treuil [00:50:03]:
And we're like, that didn't actually help us. Moving on. Like, it doesn't have to be your significant other next. Moving on. You're done.
Leslie Johnston [00:50:10]:
So have the people that you're like, oh, I know they're my person. If I need to sound something off, if I need to, like, I don't know, have some sort of, you know, hashing out of this.
Morgan May Treuil [00:50:21]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:50:21]:
So find those people and they're out there. Yeah. And then do it for them too. Like, I think a lot of times we want help for our problems, but I've found that if I'm helping other people, I focus on my own problems way less. Like when, when someone else goes, hey, I'm struggling with this, or I'm struggling with that, and you get to be the person that helps them back. To me, it's like, that is the best thing of getting rid of fear in your life. Maybe not the best thing, but one of is, I feel like when you get to help somebody else, I feel like getting out of yourself. It's like the self forgetfulness that happens when you care for other people.
Leslie Johnston [00:51:02]:
And I think that's why God probably wired us that way, which we should listen to him more. But that's really helpful. And, and then I think like, I know people are just like, when everyone's like, go to counseling. But it's like, genuinely, I've done some stuff that's like brain spotting and things that have just helped me. Like little tools that I go, oh, this makes a huge difference. Like your brain is very wired and like gets weird pathways that you do and stuff that you've trained your brain to do that you can train it out of doing that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:51:34]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:51:35]:
And so there's so many things at our fingertips and it doesn't have to be extreme. Like, my anxiety has never been panic attacks. It's never been stuff that like, I mean, it's like probably this compared to what other people have experienced. But when I finally went, you know what? I feel like it's altering my life though, in a way that I don't like my thought patterns and what happens to my emotions when that happens, that I was like, okay, I'll go to counseling. Like, even I thought you had to be at like the end of your rope to do it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:52:04]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:52:05]:
But when I went and did it, I was like, did I enjoy it at first? No. Because it's like sometimes the last thing you want to do is like dive deeper into it. Because you're like, what if I dive deeper and it gets.
Morgan May Treuil [00:52:15]:
And I can't get out, I can't get out.
Leslie Johnston [00:52:17]:
I'm stuck. And then all of a sudden now I'm like, all my worst fears came true.
Morgan May Treuil [00:52:21]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:52:22]:
But I realized that's the opposite of what happens in counseling. And so I feel like those things end up really helping and, like, little things that you learn that you go, oh, I don't have to go down the entire rabbit hole. Like, I can look at the hole and be like, oh, that's scary. But I have tools now where I don't have to jump in there.
Morgan May Treuil [00:52:38]:
Yeah. Counseling is kind of like, you're worried about. It's like diving.
Leslie Johnston [00:52:42]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:52:42]:
You're worried that if you go down, like, you won't. Like, you'll get the. You won't be able to come back up.
Leslie Johnston [00:52:47]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:52:47]:
And I think.
Leslie Johnston [00:52:48]:
And they're the ones with the life jackets. They're like, put this on and this will help you. And you're like, yes, but you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:52:54]:
But what's funny, anytime that I've had a really intense, heavy counseling session, the next day I've woken up. The day that I have it, I can. It can sink my day. Because it's a lot to access some of the deepest, hardest, darkest parts of your history or yourself or your feelings. But the next day, you always wake up, in my opinion, feeling lighter because you've accessed something deep. You unearthed something.
Leslie Johnston [00:53:15]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:53:15]:
And you've brought it to light. And when you do bring those things to light, they're no longer weights on you. They're now, like, buoyant Y. I loved love, love, love, love what you just said about soul. Like, your soul getting right with the Lord. And it reminds me that there is a lot of people that approach life like everything needs to be preserved and protected. And I'm going to claw my way out of death.
Leslie Johnston [00:53:42]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:53:43]:
Towards life here. Because they believe that this is all that there is. And I know that this is not the context of this verse, but it reminds me when God says in his word that whoever is willing to lose his life for my sake will actually find it. And what the context of being talked about is like. You're not clinging to the. The. The. The beauty and the privileges and the, you know, all that this world has to offer.
Morgan May Treuil [00:54:06]:
You're willing to throw this life away for the sake of finding your life and contextually know that this doesn't connect. But I actually do think that it kind of works that, like, you will find peace and comfort and stability in this life when you realize that this life is actually not all that there is. And you've got eternal life coming. So therefore, you're not constantly stressed about making sure you survive and hold on to this one because you've got a better one coming. So, like, the soul care piece of this is. Are you squared up with God in the way that you have assurance of your salvation. And you know that there's something better coming beyond this. Because if you know there's something better coming beyond this, it's like the people that have walked through serious illness, it's like they know that life is coming without the illness.
Morgan May Treuil [00:54:53]:
So they're not scared of the illness taking them out. Like, they might be to an extent, but there is something about people like that that they just feel way more grounded to. To. To not take this life as being the thing that they have to like white knuckle and hold on to and get all the kinds of injections and all the, you know, preventative measures. It's like they know I'm gonna do what I can to live a healthy life, to live long, to chase my grandkids, and yet I'm also gonna live like this life is not everything to me because there's something better that's coming. So I love that. Like, get your soul right with God.
Leslie Johnston [00:55:28]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:55:29]:
One other practical thing I would add, because you just said some really, really good things with people getting someone to flush stuff out with so that you're not the only one that's measuring how much something should take up space in your mind. I also think, like, with the fear we were talking about earlier, the health fear, it'd be really good to talk to like a health professional and almost have them be like, can you categorize this for me? Like, this is category one, category two, three, four, five. And I do think that sometimes inviting somebody else into that, my mom even was like, if it would bring you peace, why don't you ask someone that you know in healthcare.
Leslie Johnston [00:56:12]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:56:13]:
Who can help you sort the degree of this for whan. And it's not that you need somebody to tell you how to feel, because you can feel however you want to feel. No one's telling you that you can't. But if you're someone like me, where you're like, I actually need someone who's a little bit more level headed with this to tell me how I can categorize this. Yeah, that might be helpful. And same thing with the conversation we were having earlier. It's like, how much space should this take up in my brain? You know, is this of the level where I should be? Clorox, Wiping my dog. Yes or no.
Morgan May Treuil [00:56:42]:
And let somebody else help inform that. Because you might not be the best, the best informant on fear. Sometimes fear could use a counselor of people that's good. That tell you how you can Feel about it. One thought that I had because you were saying you didn't necessarily deal with the panic attack thing. And one thing that I found really helpful and it. I called it to mind, actually I remembered it during thrive because I don't want to like, jinx it, even though I don't believe in jinxing it. But I've spoken.
Morgan May Treuil [00:57:12]:
1, 2, 3, 3, like main session things since I've come back from maternity leave. A lot of other. More like classes, small groups, seminars, Bible studies, that kind of stuff. Four, four. It's four. Five, five. I'm keep remembering new ones. Five times I've spoken since maternity leave.
Morgan May Treuil [00:57:35]:
And all five times I have not had a single panic episode in speaking, which is so rare.
Leslie Johnston [00:57:42]:
I just can't believe you have panic episodes and you just talk through it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:57:45]:
Well, this was what I was gonna say is I remember because during our advanced ministry training day of thrive, I was talking on our communication panel about the role of anxiety and public speakers and how sometimes you kind of have to like, do it scared. And I wonder if maybe we might get backlash from some of the people that are like big counselors, you know, anxiety professionals. Like, that's not good advice. You shouldn't tell people to do it scared. You should validate their feelings. And I get that too. Totally fine. Like, love that you don't have to do anything you don't want to do scared.
Morgan May Treuil [00:58:20]:
But for me, I do have to do things scared. Because if I don't do things scared, I will never do things.
Leslie Johnston [00:58:24]:
Never do it. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:58:25]:
And it reminded me. Do you remember that message that you, me, Andrew, Lisa, Colton all taught together? It was called you make it happen.
Leslie Johnston [00:58:34]:
Oh, yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:58:34]:
And it was a. It was a co teaching message we had, like, it was on a Sunday morning and we had this table up on the stage and we all took turns talking. And that was the first time that I remember having one of those panic attacks where I wanted to leave and I couldn't leave and I was stuck. And that's the message that lives in my head as the time where I was on that stage at Bayside Granite Bay. And now when I look out into that room, I have that. I have. It haunts me. It like haunts me.
Morgan May Treuil [00:59:05]:
And it reproduces the same feeling of panic if I let it. And sometimes if I don't let it, it just comes.
Leslie Johnston [00:59:11]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:59:12]:
And I remember saying that at advanced ministry training day that, like, this room is actually a trigger for me of panic attacks.
Leslie Johnston [00:59:19]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:59:19]:
And I have to push myself through doing messages here and When I do messages here, I always have a panic attack. And it doesn't stop the fact that I do them. It just informs how I can, like, navigate and move around it. And I texted Scott. Connor texted me after that and was like, hey, thank you so much for being open about it. And I remember that the first panic attack I had for that message was actually during this Saturday night service. And I went backstage afterwards crying to you and to whoever. And I asked Scott, I said, I don't want to do that again tomorrow.
Morgan May Treuil [00:59:48]:
Like, take me off of the panel. You have four other people. You should be totally fine. You're set of people up there, but a crew people. You don't need me. And he's like, totally. This. This literally lives in my memory.
Morgan May Treuil [01:00:00]:
He's like, totally. You don't have to do it again if you don't want to. And we can make it happen. It's all good. Like, don't let this stress you out. However, I do think you should do it again tomorrow just for the sake of you not thinking that when you have these things, you can just, like, bow out because you shouldn't. You shouldn't think that. You shouldn't let this.
Morgan May Treuil [01:00:22]:
Yeah. Take you out, because if it takes you out once, it can continue to take you out. So, like, how cool will it feel tomorrow if at the end of all the morning services, you realize, I could have stopped doing this last night, but I didn't do it. And it. It went okay the next day. And I was like, okay, like. And part of me was, like, scared to disappoint people. The other part of me was like, no, I actually don't want that to be true for me.
Leslie Johnston [01:00:41]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [01:00:42]:
So I did it again the next day, and there were. And I didn't drink coffee that morning. And it actually did go better than when I had drinking coffee the day before. Yeah. All of that to say, I do think that there is an element of. You need to not. You need to not let the moments where the panic attacks come in take you out of doing those things altogether entirely. Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:04]:
As a parent, I think about this often. Like, I haven't had many situations in which something bad happened to Waylon somewhere, and now I'm, like, scared to put him in those situations again. But that's. That. That also probably applies. Like, you need to figure out, like, what are the things where something bad happened? And my tendency is like, well, I'll just never do that thing again. But actually, the better thing to do would be to, like, put yourself back in Situations like that and lean in because you want to be able to do those things again, not like, let them take you out.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:34]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:35]:
And. And I say that. And, and what's funny is the first two speaking moments that I had post. Post partum. One was adventure. I have no issues with that room. It was great. One was at Folsom.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:49]:
I have no. No issues with that room. It's. It's great. The. The last one that I was like most stressed for was the seven minute thing at Thrive for Granite Bay. Because I haven't done something like that. I've done announcements and things like that, but I haven't done something like that in that room.
Morgan May Treuil [01:02:02]:
No panic. No panic at all. And I'm not even going to like, hyper spiritualize it and be like, God healed me. I don't think God healed me, but I do think that I didn't let that room or that situation become a no go. I just can't do that. And you have the ability to do that. You can push through things and you can do things scared. And you cannot let certain rooms or certain things or certain situations take you out.
Morgan May Treuil [01:02:26]:
And that's a practical thing that we don't give much attention to. Like, you don't have to do that. You don't have to remove yourself. So that would be my practical thing. Don't remove yourself from the things that scare you.
Leslie Johnston [01:02:35]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [01:02:36]:
Unless it's like, there's a bear chasing me. Yes. Get out of the forest. Get the heck out of the forest. Obviously, I'm not saying stay in the room with the bear.
Leslie Johnston [01:02:44]:
No.
Morgan May Treuil [01:02:45]:
But there are things.
Leslie Johnston [01:02:46]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [01:02:47]:
Where your brain can trick you. Sorry I'm so long winded. But your brain can trick you into thinking that. That you have reason to be fearful where you actually don't have reason to be fearful. And that's a part of a fallen and broken world. So to identify. I have no reason to be scared in this moment. But I am.
Morgan May Treuil [01:03:03]:
Put yourself back in it, then. Put yourself back in it until you're not scared anymore. And I don't believe in exposure therapy. That's not what I'm saying. But like with Waylon, like, he's scared of dogs right now, and I keep putting him next to Ryder because I want him to know that this is not an unsafe environment.
Leslie Johnston [01:03:18]:
Yeah. That is so powerful, Morgan. And I feel like I remember it reminds me, Dr. Almond, who we know and love, he's always. He always talks about. He's like, if you have a panic attack in a grocery store, don't Leave the grocery store. He's like, you will train your mind that, oh, I can't go there, because that will happen.
Morgan May Treuil [01:03:38]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [01:03:38]:
So I think you're living proof that it's like, you know what? It's not that it will never happen again. No. But it's that you're training your mind to be like, I can live through this. I can come back and do this, and I'm not gonna let it hold me back.
Morgan May Treuil [01:03:51]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [01:03:53]:
That's so good.
Morgan May Treuil [01:03:53]:
One more practical thing for thought training that I think is good is it's not an ignoring of the fear that's going to get you through it or help you not feel that anymore. It's like a replacement of thought. And so this is super practical. But, like, last night, Leslie and I and Benji and one of our friends, C.J. who's been on the podcast, we went to a. A really cool dinner experience we've been looking forward to for a long time. And one of the things that makes me really anxious is sitting in the middle of the room. And in this restaurant, there is no corner of the room.
Morgan May Treuil [01:04:26]:
It's. Every table's in the middle of the room.
Leslie Johnston [01:04:28]:
Everything's in the middle.
Morgan May Treuil [01:04:29]:
I didn't know that. But you always, like, anticipate, like, oh, I just really hope that we're, like, seated in some corner so my back can be. It's like, the same sensation of grounding to me that, like, being having your back against the corner of the room accomplishes. And we were in the middle of the room, and I was like, I don't want this to ruin my experience because, like, I could totally get anxious. And we're also super high up. They're all high tables.
Leslie Johnston [01:04:50]:
No grounding.
Morgan May Treuil [01:04:51]:
I can't. My feet on the ground. I'm in the middle of the room. This is a recipe for disaster. But one of the fun factors in this restaurant is you can get up and walk around and do whatever you want. There's no rules. And I'm like, there is something to that with the whole anxiety thing of, okay, I'm not gonna pretend like the anxious thoughts aren't gonna pop up, but when they do, I can redirect or retrain or reprogram anxious thoughts. I can take the thought captive and.
Morgan May Treuil [01:05:19]:
And then I can obey it to Christ. I can take the thought captive as it comes up, and I can immediately start a conversation with you guys that actually brings me a lot of joy, a lot of fun. Like, last night, I remember having an anxious thought and being like, cj, what's the very best restaurant you've ever been to in your whole life. And I love talking about food and restaurants. So it's like, okay, you're not going to. You're not going to survive this. If the anxious thought pops up and then all of a sudden you're like, okay, so what do you guys think about the moon landing? You think it's real? You think it's not? Like, I don't give a crap about the moon landing. I don't care if the.
Morgan May Treuil [01:05:53]:
I don't think we should be going to the moon. Because I'm like, what does this do for us? So that's not the conversation that's going to hook my brain and help it feel like oxytocin or peace or whatever. Right?
Leslie Johnston [01:06:03]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [01:06:03]:
There have been times where it's like, I'll feel an anxious thought and I'll pull up a picture of wailing, because it's like that. It does something to my brain that works. So the solution is not, don't have the thoughts. The solution is not, you know, try to get lost in something that doesn't interest you. It's like, no, like, take the thought captive, obey it to Christ, remind it of its role in your life. You're a great passenger. You're a terrible driver. And I'm gonna think about something, start a conversation or involve somebody that I like, really enjoy, and I'll train my thoughts that way.
Morgan May Treuil [01:06:33]:
Yeah, because you can thought train. Yes. It's the ants thing that he talks about. Like, yes, you can stomp out negative thoughts, but you also do have to do some, like, replacement thoughts.
Leslie Johnston [01:06:42]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [01:06:42]:
So what are the replacement thoughts that you have? And it can be a mixture of spiritual. It could also be a mixture of just plain fun and enjoyable. Yeah. And wholesome things, too.
Leslie Johnston [01:06:51]:
I love that.
Morgan May Treuil [01:06:53]:
And there's unhealthy ways to do that, which we talked. We could talk about and we've talked about before.
Leslie Johnston [01:06:57]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [01:06:57]:
But there's also healthy ways to do it. Yep.
Leslie Johnston [01:06:59]:
Yeah. So these are so many. Good health.
Morgan May Treuil [01:07:01]:
We have to go to a meeting,
Leslie Johnston [01:07:02]:
but I know we do have to go to a meeting, which is such a bummer.
Morgan May Treuil [01:07:05]:
There are fun. Two fun fear worry episodes for you.
Leslie Johnston [01:07:08]:
We could probably do another one. Honestly.
Morgan May Treuil [01:07:10]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [01:07:10]:
This was a good. I needed this today.
Morgan May Treuil [01:07:12]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [01:07:13]:
I really needed it.
Morgan May Treuil [01:07:13]:
If this thing we were scared of takes off, then we'll bring in. Because apparently we'll. We'll be back and we'll bring on a healthcare professional to talk to us about some of the realities.
Leslie Johnston [01:07:22]:
Some of the realities oh, well, we love you guys. Thanks for listening. And worry less. Yeah. Think better. Thoughts more.
Morgan May Treuil [01:07:31]:
Worry less. Pray more. Don't be anxious. Do not live, laugh, love. Yes. And remember that God's with you. Live, laugh, love. If it's not.
Morgan May Treuil [01:07:41]:
If it's not the end, what is it? If it's not good, it's not the end.
Leslie Johnston [01:07:44]:
The end. I think my mom threw away that candle, which is horrifying to me.
Morgan May Treuil [01:07:48]:
Did you tell her that's unacceptable?
Leslie Johnston [01:07:49]:
I know. I need. I need to actually need a call after this and tell her.
Morgan May Treuil [01:07:52]:
Don't throw the candle away.
Leslie Johnston [01:07:53]:
Even when it. Even when it burns out life on that candle.
Morgan May Treuil [01:07:56]:
We should bring it up there. We should. She threw it away.
Leslie Johnston [01:07:58]:
I would be so upset.
Morgan May Treuil [01:07:59]:
We should put it up there.
Leslie Johnston [01:08:00]:
We should put it up there. All right, we love you guys. See you next time. Bye.