Morgan May Treuil [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to Am I Doing this Right? This is the best day ever for
Leslie Johnston [00:00:05]:
a very, very special podcast.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:06]:
Yes. We've never done this before. We've never done. Well, two things we've never had happen before. We've never had the fabulous, the one, the only Jo Saxton on our podcast. So welcome first.
Jo Saxton [00:00:16]:
Thank you.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:17]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:00:17]:
And because.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:18]:
Oh, and if you hear that, here's an applause breakout. If you hear that applause breakout, it's because we thought for Jo's episode, we must have a live studio audience because she's amazing and everybody needs to soak up her amazingness, and we've never had a live studio audience before.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:33]:
I know, and I'm so excited. Are you guys happy to be here?
Jo Saxton [00:00:37]:
This is awesome.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:38]:
Great.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:39]:
So you know what? This is a true test, though, of Morgan and I, because we obviously film podcasts, and it's dead quiet in the room. There's maybe, like, a video guy in here. And so no one's laughing at the jokes. Even the video guy's not laughing at the jokes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:50]:
So they're, like, bored.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:51]:
We feel a little bit better because it's like, well, no one's gonna laugh anyways. So this is a true test of our humor.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:55]:
Yes. So it doesn't have to be funny for you to laugh.
Jo Saxton [00:00:58]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:58]:
You can just laugh. That's totally fine. But, Jo, sincerely, thank you so much for taking time to be here. We're in the middle of our conference. You're about to teach us in one of our main sessions for the conference. We can't wait to hear from you. But you were generous enough to give us 30 minutes of your time to hop on this podcast. So we have to get to one of the most important questions we ask guests.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:17]:
Well, actually, before I get to that, can you give us the synopsis, the brief synopsis, however brief you want to go, of what life looks like for you right now?
Jo Saxton [00:01:24]:
Yeah. What life looks like. I live in the Minneapolis area. I. I'm married to a guy, mother of two college kids. I work at Bethel University in St. Paul doing leadership development, and I speak and teach and things. And then I run an initiative called ASA Collective for Women Leaders.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:44]:
So cool. Thank you for what you do. That's really awesome. And then my. The question I was talking about was your unpopular opinion, which is the most important, of course.
Jo Saxton [00:01:51]:
Thank you. Thank you for asking me this, because I have strong feelings.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:54]:
Love it. That's good.
Jo Saxton [00:01:56]:
And it's a kind of. It's a twofer, really. I have two unpopular opinions, but they kind of go together. 1. Chocolate tastes like sick. And eggnog is Christmas backwash.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:07]:
Oh, my goodness. Okay, wait, so what was the first thing you said chocolate like, tastes like What?
Jo Saxton [00:02:11]:
Sick. Sick. Vomit.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:12]:
Oh, chocolate tastes like vomit.
Jo Saxton [00:02:15]:
Yeah. No, all of them. Although the American is worse. I've got to be honest.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:20]:
Have you. American chocolate is worse. Have you always felt.
Jo Saxton [00:02:23]:
No, since my teens. Oh, since my teens.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:26]:
Was like a taste bud change or.
Jo Saxton [00:02:28]:
I guess so.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:29]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:02:30]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:30]:
That is funny. Okay, so are you the kind of person where you're like, if there's any chocolate in it, I'm not eating it because I think it tastes.
Jo Saxton [00:02:36]:
Yeah, because it's contaminated. Everything else.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:37]:
Yeah. The vomit, if it's nearest contaminated.
Jo Saxton [00:02:40]:
Like, like, you can't. You don't want to be picking up pieces of. No, no. Just let it be.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:44]:
Let it be. Okay. And then the eggnog, I'm realizing right
Leslie Johnston [00:02:47]:
now, I put chocolate in your gift basket, so we're gonna take that out.
Jo Saxton [00:02:49]:
No. My husband is very grateful. Someone always forgets and it's fine. It's fine. It just always.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:55]:
And eggnog.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:56]:
No, I'm just kidding.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:57]:
It's not in this.
Jo Saxton [00:02:58]:
Eggnog is a thing. Now, that one, I'm. I'm deeply disappointed because growing up watching American movies, it talked about eggnog. There is no eggnog in the uk. So I was like, when I get to America, one of the first things I'm going to do.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:08]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:03:09]:
Is try some eggnog. And people talk about nutmeg and things sprinkled on it and all these other weird things. So I'm really excited.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:15]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:03:15]:
I just need to say that again. I was really excited. Yes. I was really excited. And it was somebody's Christmas party and you're feeling kind of festive and there are songs in the background and decorations and there's no snow because I'm in Phoenix. Right. And everything. But.
Jo Saxton [00:03:28]:
But it's okay because there's eggnog.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:29]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:03:30]:
And so I. Someone says, would you like some eggnog? And I'm like, my moment has come and I'm about to have my moment of eggnog, and I drink it back and I put it down and I think, somebody's already drank this. Somebody has already drank this. I am drinking somebody's leftovers. And then I realize I'm not. That's just how it tastes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:50]:
That is so true.
Jo Saxton [00:03:52]:
It's just how it tastes.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:53]:
It's so true.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:53]:
It's a texture and a taste thing.
Jo Saxton [00:03:55]:
It's a texture. It's a Taste. It's a why? It's a why. Why did we do this? And then people have said, well, you haven't tasted my grandma's recipe. And I'm like, God bless your gr. Grandma. But I don't want. Don't let me take.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:06]:
Wait, can I. I think you're a foodie, is that right?
Jo Saxton [00:04:08]:
I do. Well, I do. I'm an et. Really?
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:10]:
Okay.
Jo Saxton [00:04:10]:
I like that. I, I. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:13]:
So, like, what's your go to? It's your birthday.
Jo Saxton [00:04:16]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:17]:
And it's your favorite meal. What are you eating?
Jo Saxton [00:04:19]:
Oh, so many things.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:22]:
You can do as many things as you want.
Jo Saxton [00:04:23]:
Okay.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:24]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:04:25]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:25]:
Give us breakfast.
Jo Saxton [00:04:25]:
Lunch. I do think the US breakfast is one of the greatest breakfasts in the world. I'm a big fan of the American breakfast.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:30]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:04:31]:
Although. Anyway, so pancakes and things like that, they will be eggs, because protein and that, apparently, midlife is all about protein.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:41]:
Sustain you for the rest of your birthday.
Jo Saxton [00:04:43]:
For the rest of the hour.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:44]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:04:44]:
Until I have my next. Yes. And so. Yeah. And there'll be sausages. The sausages will be English, though, and they'll be bacon and there'll be all kinds of things. So just a lot of it, really. Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:04:54]:
And hash browns. Good ones.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:56]:
Crispy crisp. Yes, yes.
Jo Saxton [00:04:57]:
Thank you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:58]:
What are these soggy hashtags?
Jo Saxton [00:04:59]:
Why? Yeah, why? They look sad.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:01]:
They're sad.
Jo Saxton [00:05:02]:
They are sad and it's unfortunate.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:05]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:05:05]:
Then I think for lunch, I'm going to pretend to have a salad.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:08]:
Okay.
Jo Saxton [00:05:09]:
On the side. Yes. With fries.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:13]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:05:13]:
Yes. There'll be lots of fries.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:15]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:05:16]:
There'll be a little salad.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:17]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:05:17]:
Because I didn't. It's my birthday.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:19]:
It's your birthday.
Jo Saxton [00:05:20]:
I've got the rest of the year to have salad.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:22]:
That is so good.
Jo Saxton [00:05:23]:
And then in the evening, I will have a curry. Oh, yeah. I'll have a chicken tikka masala or a chicken sag. Yeah. Yeah. Indian curry.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:33]:
Yes. Wow. You and me could eat together.
Jo Saxton [00:05:35]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:36]:
We could go places together.
Jo Saxton [00:05:37]:
Great.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:37]:
Leslie could, too. We're all here.
Jo Saxton [00:05:39]:
And you could have the chocolate that I won't be having.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:41]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:43]:
And we'll pour the eggnog down the drain together.
Jo Saxton [00:05:44]:
Would you?
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:45]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:05:45]:
Yeah. Thank you. Amen. Do you reckon it cleans out the drain?
Leslie Johnston [00:05:49]:
It might.
Jo Saxton [00:05:50]:
There we go. Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:50]:
Just strips everything down with it.
Jo Saxton [00:05:52]:
Maybe there is a purpose. Yeah. The Christmas backwash. Sorry. I'm quite bitter about it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:57]:
Now, I want to thank you because I believe that you are paving the way for leaders in general, across all the spaces that you get to lead in your Equipping of other leaders is profound. It's necessary. And I specifically want to thank you because the predominant listenership of our podcast is females. There is 15% men. And they get really upset.
Jo Saxton [00:06:21]:
Welcome, gentlemen.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:23]:
There's the one fifteen. There's two. There's two guys.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:26]:
So that's about.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:27]:
They make up the 15% of our podcast listeners and they get upset when we don't reference them. But, but for the majority of women that listen to this podcast, I just want to thank you for what you do because who you are, your skills, what you bring to the table and how not only are you talented in and of yourself, but you're equipping other people. This is, it's a game changer for the rest of us. So I want to thank you for that. And we do want to ask you some leadership questions and we're going to let our studio audience. Audience ask you some questions. The first one I'll ask you though is what is the leadership principle that you live by?
Jo Saxton [00:07:00]:
Oh, I'm having three thoughts at once.
Morgan May Treuil [00:07:03]:
But the first, all of them.
Jo Saxton [00:07:04]:
Okay, the first one is, is you lead from the inside out. And so what's happening on the inside is shaping the leader you are on the outside. So pay attention to what's happening on the inside, whether it's the broken parts of your story, whether it's your emotional and mental well being, to not ignore that. I think the other one that I've, I've learned and, and increasingly is just be unapologetic about it. You're not too much or not enough. I think, I think we can have a tendency to hide our gifts and call it humility and, or call it something, get really super spiritualize it and it's just hiding and it's fear and, and I'm not saying be unapologetic because we're all that. I'm just that there's nothing to apologize for. When God has called you, you're simply responding faithfully.
Jo Saxton [00:07:52]:
Right. So those, those would probably be the two that have come to.
Morgan May Treuil [00:07:56]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:07:57]:
That I come back to again and again.
Leslie Johnston [00:07:58]:
So good from your kind of story and your upbringing. And it's okay to expand on this one a little bit more. What do you think made you into the leader you are today? Like, were there a couple things maybe growing up or things that happened, some pivotal moments in your life that kind of launched you to be the leader that you are?
Jo Saxton [00:08:17]:
There are a couple I go back to. I think one that I'm. One that has shaped me particularly was when I got to college. When I got to college, I remember, anyway, I remember being with my friends and they were talking about the musical instruments they all learned and the dust gathering on the flutes that were in their dorm rooms and stuff. And I just remember having this disproportionate emotional response to it and thinking clearly, lord, this is not about my desire to play the flute because I never wanted to play it, but I was. But. And I remember kind of walking often when I'm stressed out. I walk and talk with God.
Jo Saxton [00:08:53]:
And now it's fine because iPhones. But back then you look like a crazy lady pretending. Yeah. Just like, oh, it's not created yet. So. And what it was was I grew up in a marginalized part of London. Very wonderful community. I mean, not the safest, but wonderful community, but very under resourced.
Jo Saxton [00:09:15]:
Very under resourced. So you didn't get music lessons? You didn't get. You. Like, I had teachers who would try and work things around so I could go and visit something and that. Because there were just no resources. And I think by, by the time I got to college, and I mean, everybody in my family went to college. I was in the first year. It wasn't anything special in that respect.
Jo Saxton [00:09:35]:
But I remember looking and thinking, oh, I didn't have a chance to work out whether I'd be good at that or not. I didn't have a chance to work out whether I would. Whether that was something I'd enjoy, whether something I'd love. And I. And I realized the frustration I was feeling was grief. I was grieving, not. I didn't resent my friends for letting the dust gather. I just was sad that I never had a chance to work out whether the dust was going to gather anything.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:57]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:09:58]:
And I think it just reminded me that so much about our calling is about access. Like, do you have access to mentors? Do you have access to encouragement? Do you have access to environments who don't just tolerate you, but celebrate you?
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:11]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:10:12]:
And. And I think for me, that moment and the moments afterwards were a. Wherever I am, whatever I'm doing, I'm giving people access.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:21]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:10:22]:
I'll have the awkward conversations. We'll have that. We'll have the personal stories, anything that helps someone come through. Because other. Because what would happen is as years on, I'd meet leaders who would say things and I'm like, this is not a you problem. This is an access problem.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:35]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:10:36]:
The fact that you don't know how to preach is because nobody trained you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:39]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:10:39]:
The fact that you don't know how to handle this. Is that. No.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:41]:
You.
Jo Saxton [00:10:41]:
You were volunteered into a position and now you're feeling terrible at it? Well, of course you're terrible. Who tells you what to do? But that doesn't mean you can't grow.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:49]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:10:49]:
And. And so I think for me, it just has hit home again and again how important access is. And when we don't give access, it limits it to the few and often the moneyed or the powerful. And actually we're all. We're all designed by the Lord, by the living God. And there'll be things that we're missing out on because we haven't. We've not looked in the unusual places. Wow.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:12]:
Would you say that you do what you do now because somebody grabbed you, took you under their wing and taught you, or would you say that it's because you didn't have somebody that did that and you had to learn that for yourself and you're passionate about creating that experience for someone else?
Jo Saxton [00:11:28]:
I would say both. And I had them at certain seasons and not at others. So When I was 18, I was at Bible college for a year or two before I went to university. And there was a leader on staff. She was the only. It was. We. I left London at this point in another part of.
Jo Saxton [00:11:43]:
Of England, in the north of England. And I remember the way she laughed. It was like low key, inappropriate. It was wonderful. And I thought, that's a laugh that has a story. And. And she was from the same part of London as I was and another black woman. And.
Jo Saxton [00:11:59]:
And it was a. We were the only. There are very few black women in that area at that time.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:03]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:12:03]:
And so. And she understood my reactions to being in. Coming out of an urban center, to being in a really rural area where there were more cows than people. As much as I love cows. Yeah. Prefer to eat them. So. So she, it was just one.
Jo Saxton [00:12:20]:
She, she. She's like, this girl's going to have a breakdown. So she kind of gathered me and it was. I think she showed me a lot about her walk with God. She'd been through some terrible stuff. Her laugh did not match her life. Do you know what I mean? Her freedom did not match her story at all. And.
Jo Saxton [00:12:34]:
And I'm like, I don't get all of the things. In some ways, I came back to the Lord at Bible college, but that's another story. But. But there was something about her life which made me think, there is more to Jesus than I'm. Than I've discovered.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:47]:
Wow.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:47]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:12:48]:
There's A transformation that he brings. There's a life that he brings. And so she was instrumental for that. And she was instrumental for me for saying, take your gift seriously, you know, you. Your gift seriously and not take yourself too seriously. And she was, she modeled that wonderfully well.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:01]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:13:01]:
And then she. And, and so that was, that was helpful for me. But there have been other phases as I've gotten older. Like when my kids were young, I don't know that there was anybody I, I was able to talk to about what I felt called to do. I think it was really confusing in terms of I'd get these invitations to speak and all that kind of stuff. And I've got these babies who are 17 months apart. And that was planned. It was planned.
Jo Saxton [00:13:25]:
I just didn't know what I was planning. Thinking, I don't know what this means. I wasn't expecting to keep on walking in my calling in that way at that time.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:34]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:13:34]:
And so that was, that was hard. That was really hard and really lonely there. I wasn't sure to feel shamed or guilty or whatever. And, and working there was a lot of just, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do this, but I feel compelled. And I. So I would probably saying that in the more recent years, a lot of it has come from peers where we've sat it sat down and kind of worked out and basically asked, am I doing this wrong?
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:56]:
Right, right, right.
Jo Saxton [00:13:57]:
And. And have had to thrash out various things. And I don't know that that was anybody's fault. I think it was just the situations we were in. I think there weren't many women leaders around who had, who had lived that chapter. So I gleaned what I could. I gleaned what I could on my life and all. Do you know what I mean? You can learn from everybody, really.
Jo Saxton [00:14:15]:
I gleaned what I could in terms of the general principles, but the kinds of working out leadership stuff and what it meant in the practicalities with. As a mother with young children, that one felt, was. Felt lonely. And I think. And now it's like, now what do I do with a hot flash. Do you know what I mean? And there are, there are just every chapter there's something that you're kind of working through and coming to terms with and, and working out how to find the answers.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:39]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:39]:
So good.
Jo Saxton [00:14:39]:
Does that make sense?
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:40]:
That's a long answer. No. That's so much. Yeah. No, I was gonna say, I think everyone in the room is like, oh, okay, this is Gonna, like, they're. They're about to ask you some great questions about this in particular.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:49]:
Yeah. I have one question before we throw to the audience.
Jo Saxton [00:14:52]:
Sure. Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:52]:
Okay. When. If you were to take a walk with that version of you with the two babies 17 months apart, knowing everything you know now about leadership and life or just life experience, if you were to take a walk with you back then, what would be, like, your advice for that person? Because I think a lot of our listeners are in that season.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:11]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:15:12]:
I would say, oh, gosh. I would say you're doing better than you feel. You are
Leslie Johnston [00:15:18]:
great.
Jo Saxton [00:15:19]:
I would say if. Yeah, I would. I'd first just like, let her get it out. All out. Get it out. Yeah. Rant the thing and say you're doing better than you feel you are. And there are a lot of oughts and shoulds that are around you and you get to carve it out.
Jo Saxton [00:15:38]:
I would say there are some people around you who aren't going to be good friends.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:42]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:15:44]:
And that I would. You know what I would say? I would say fear and anxiety and stress has many faces. Learn to recognize them. Wow. I didn't recognize what anxiety looked like.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:55]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:15:55]:
Until later when it imposed itself in the form of a panic attack. Years later, I didn't recognize it. But I. I would say, I. I would. I would tell her she's gonna. She's gonna be fine. She's gonna be okay.
Jo Saxton [00:16:07]:
And, um. And that life is this bumpy and it. And it is. There's. There isn't an arriving where everything feels imbalanced and perfect. You're learning and you're growing. And I would probably say you do get to have a bit more fun than you're currently having in the middle of this.
Morgan May Treuil [00:16:25]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:16:26]:
Yeah. So good. Wow.
Morgan May Treuil [00:16:28]:
Thank you. I feel like I have so many questions, but we'll wait, we'll pause because you guys probably have questions. If you have a question, just slip a hand in the air. We'll call on you, and then we can let you guys ask Jo a question. Yes, you with the hand in the back. And then we'll go around. Say it loud and proud, please. Being that you're an empty nester now, I'm just curious because, like, we're watching my first child soon and how I know, you know, empty nester changes your marriage.
Morgan May Treuil [00:16:56]:
But I'm just curious, in ministry and your calling, what you do there, like, have you seen God creates spaces that maybe previously you didn't have because your guests were for your kids and what that looks like? Now, like that new phase.
Jo Saxton [00:17:09]:
Yeah, it's wild, actually. I think when Zoe left, went to college in August, I guess it was. I think the weirdest thing is the headspace. I have headspace. I've not had now. Do the girls call me every day? Yes. Do we talk every day? Have I had texts already about whether we're going to the next Beyonce concert? Yes, I have. All of this has already happened.
Jo Saxton [00:17:29]:
We are talking, and I'm like, I am in Sacramento. They're like, what are you doing? I said, I told you, I'm in sacrament. You know, women's. Yes. And. And we had these.
Leslie Johnston [00:17:37]:
Location is in Sacramento.
Jo Saxton [00:17:38]:
What the heck, Mom? They're like, so you're at an airport? I'm like, yes, I am. Yes. Let me live. You can't tell me what to do, you're not the boss of me kind of thing. It's weird how these things have flipped, but there is this head space because there. Because there's more room. I'm not handling somebody's braces, appointments, sports appointments, and. And in some ways, because they were driving.
Jo Saxton [00:17:58]:
That has been happening over a little while. And I think there. I think a number of things have happened. I think God has confronted me with the, so, what do you want to do? And I'm like, well, Lord, I'm 52. And he's like, and. And I thought. And again, it's another era where I thought, oh, I don't know whether I thought about what this year of my life looked like. I don't know that I thought through what God would want to do.
Jo Saxton [00:18:21]:
And for as long as we have breath, we have opportunity, right? And so I think it's given us space. Chris and I, my husband, we were like, good job. We get on. Do you know what I mean? I mean, we. And we. Do we. But, yeah, I. But there's a lot of great divorces.
Jo Saxton [00:18:35]:
I mean, in terms of a cultural shift, gray divorces are significant because that. You can only hold back the. You can only hold back the years for so long before it collides. But it's given us kind of like, oh, it's given us pause. And in some ways, I'm asking the questions in my 50s that I was asking my 20s, what am I doing with the rest of my life?
Morgan May Treuil [00:18:53]:
Wow.
Jo Saxton [00:18:53]:
Who are my people? What are you calling me to do? And now with some resources, as well as the phone, which is still on fire, but it's shaping us again. And. And I think I. One of the things I pray for, generally with the Lord, is a wild card. I'm like, lord, just give me something I did not see coming. I then complain when he does that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:14]:
I was gonna say, that's it. Yeah. I'm like, that's a risky prayer.
Jo Saxton [00:19:16]:
That's a risky prayer.
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:17]:
God, I don't want that one.
Jo Saxton [00:19:19]:
Do you know what I mean? A little frisson, a little kind of Jennifer in the thing. And, and I'm like, I feel like this, this empty nest. The season feels like a wild card. It's like you could just do whatever God's inviting you into. You've got time, you've got space. I mean, you've still got kids going through college, which is not the cheapest chapter of my life, but there is, there's opportunity. And I. So I, I found myself seeking at the minute.
Jo Saxton [00:19:44]:
I'm not sure I know all that it is yet, but I'm seeking and open and think and just allowing God to, to ignite my imagination.
Leslie Johnston [00:19:51]:
Yeah, I love that.
Jo Saxton [00:19:52]:
The things I didn't see coming.
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:54]:
Wow, that's really, really good. Another yes, right here. I was just curious.
Jo Saxton [00:19:59]:
You said take your gifts seriously and
Leslie Johnston [00:20:02]:
so in regards to calling, maybe you
Jo Saxton [00:20:03]:
can just speak on what that looks
Leslie Johnston [00:20:05]:
like, what that's looked like for you.
Jo Saxton [00:20:07]:
What does it look like to take
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:08]:
your gifts seriously while also letting God open doors.
Leslie Johnston [00:20:12]:
I'm going to repeat the question just in case they don't pick it up in the mic.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:15]:
I'm going to add to the question. Oh, continue.
Jo Saxton [00:20:17]:
Okay, okay. I should have a notepad.
Leslie Johnston [00:20:19]:
So her question was, how do you take your gifts seriously and the calling that you have in your life? Right?
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:24]:
Yes. And I'm gonna add to that question. How did you find your gifts? Because I think there's probably people in here that are just now entering a space where they're able to explore gifts in general. And I don't know if people know how to find those.
Jo Saxton [00:20:37]:
Yeah, I stumbled on them.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:38]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:20:39]:
Honestly, I stump very accidentally.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:42]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:20:42]:
I would have been the last person who had called. I would, I was, I was like the last to know I was a leader. And then when I was looking back, it's like, oh, wow, I really am not that self aware. Do you know what I mean? Like, I was the captain of all the sports teams at school and the, the intramural ones. I was, I was like in the classroom, I was always the head thing of something and then people say, are you a leader? I'm like, no, I'm not a leader. Partly because I wasn't sure I was whether I Got to be one. There was a theological piece I hadn't entirely worked through, and partly because I just did not want to be visible.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:10]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:21:11]:
And so I stumbled on things I liked. It's not. I didn't. It's not that I didn't like the things I got to do or the responsibility. I just felt I was just so insecure, so broken, so vulnerable that it's. There was just no way it wasn't going to work. And so I think I discovered them by people volunteering me for things in some ways, like encouraging me to speak at something. And I'm like, I don't want to think.
Jo Saxton [00:21:38]:
And. And I. And I stumbled on. I was speaking in particular. I stumbled on it very much so. Just being volunteered for things. And I was. I was.
Jo Saxton [00:21:47]:
I grew up in the Methodist church, and they had very much a hymn sandwich.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:51]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:21:51]:
I him. Sat down, prayed, which was very helpful, actually, to learn how to lead things. But I would be violently sick every time I was speaking. And I mean, reading a passage from Scripture, I was violently ill.
Morgan May Treuil [00:22:03]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:22:04]:
In various areas. And I remember I. And I literally said, God, this is my fleece. If you want me to do this, you're gonna have to fix this, because I can't go every week.
Leslie Johnston [00:22:15]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:22:17]:
There will be nothing left. Yeah, it was. It was a lot. It was a lot. And so I think some of it, you stumble. I stumbled on it. I stumbled on discovering, like, I was the college pastor for a while, and I stumbled on. On things.
Morgan May Treuil [00:22:30]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:22:31]:
On ideas I didn't know, like, how to have a vision for something. They were just the things that irritated me, to be honest. Just like, someone needs to do something about this. Yeah. It just needs to get done. No. Okay, fine. There was so many of those.
Jo Saxton [00:22:45]:
So many of those in my life. But in terms of taking them, when I realized, then I had a choice. When I realized God had invited me to speak, then I had a choice. And. And so that shaped how I. What I studied. It shaped like. Like there was a kind of private preparation for things.
Jo Saxton [00:23:04]:
So I would be re. It was. It determined what I read and listened to and practiced. And like, because I knew I like communicators, so I watch a lot of stand up. Always have, always will. Because I'm cool. Because I. What? And yes, I did theater at school in.
Jo Saxton [00:23:19]:
In high school. And I didn't. Looking back, I realized that was one of the best training for speaking I'd had because it gets you out of your body so good.
Morgan May Treuil [00:23:26]:
That's such physicality.
Jo Saxton [00:23:27]:
I'M like, improv. Go to. Go to improv and be terrible at it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:23:30]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:23:31]:
Do you know what I mean? Because it. Get ready for anything makes you ready for anything. And so I think there are. Whatever the area of calling that you feel you have, I would say, what does it look like to practice in private? What does it look like to. To, like, if you like writing, Are you writing anything anywhere? Do you have, like. Like, anybody can set up a substack. Like, there are things that we can do now that weren't possible before, for sure. And then there is this awkward moment where you do actually have to let someone know you do.
Jo Saxton [00:24:03]:
Because here's the thing, we get real spiritual about this. And like, if God, if it's me, if it's you, Lord, if it's me, I don't want it, but if it's you, then you're going to find a way. And Lord's like, I gave you a mouth. Could you tell someone?
Leslie Johnston [00:24:14]:
Wow.
Jo Saxton [00:24:14]:
Do you know what I mean? Because here's what happens. We wait to be picked. Like some divine hand comes from the sky and knocks, or we expect God tell that person. Tell that person. And what it is, is we want that person's approval. Yeah, we want that person. And I get it, because it's vulnerable. But at some point, you've got to tell somebody and you've got to.
Jo Saxton [00:24:29]:
You've got to work out how you tell them. Look, this is something I'm exploring. This is something I'm curious about. This. I feel God's calling me to this. And it is vulnerable. And I don't know that it ever gets less vulnerable.
Morgan May Treuil [00:24:38]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:24:39]:
But vulnerability is a part of your leadership and owning your voice and owning your calling and take. And also if it is, remember, our callings are not just for us. They're about representing God in the world. They're about the renewal of all things. They're about human flourishing. So it's not about you anyway, but sometimes we need to practice it. So before I was writing books, I remember thinking, thinking, oh, okay, fine about it. And I felt like Lord said, you just need to tell people you want to do it.
Jo Saxton [00:25:06]:
I'm like, who? Who am I telling? I have two young. Am I telling my babies, hey, Zoe, I want to write a book one day? I mean, what are we doing here? It's weird. And I have a really strong policy on don't be weird as Christians. Real strong policy. And that's odd because we are a lot.
Leslie Johnston [00:25:20]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:25:21]:
And. But I felt like I needed to get into the habit of when I was introducing myself to people or they said, what do you do? And. And I'd be like, well, I do this, but I'm also interested in writing. And it felt like I was screaming it in my mind. I felt like I was like, I wasn't doing that. I was just saying I'm also interested in writing. And I. And for about a year, I did this.
Jo Saxton [00:25:42]:
A year in every environment. Like, I'm at Starbucks, I'm at an event, I'm talking to a friend. It's dumb. I'm just doing this because the Lord has said, just tell people you're into writing. And then one day I'm at an event and someone's serving snacks, which is one of my favorite things, obviously. So I get a snack. And she says, what do you do? And I'm like, well, we know what we do. And so I'm interested in.
Jo Saxton [00:26:04]:
Oh, I speak in things and got young kids and I'm interested in writing. And she goes, well, I'm a publisher. Oh, I know. And so began a long conversation which led to writing now. Or if I had waited for someone to find. How were they going to know? Were they going to break into my. Into my journal? Yeah. Because then me and them have got other issues.
Jo Saxton [00:26:24]:
You know what I'm saying? But I. I think we have to get into the habit of articulating what we believe God's saying.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:31]:
Yeah, right.
Jo Saxton [00:26:32]:
It. And I'm. And I don't say that lightly. I know it's hard. I would. But with trusted friends, I'm even going to be. This is where I am going to be. Weird.
Jo Saxton [00:26:41]:
I'm going to encourage you to practice it with your friends. Practice saying that thing. Practice the ask. Practice the question. Because we have to get used to it. Because that sometimes that question is on the other side of an opportunity.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:55]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:26:55]:
Now sometimes that question is on the other side of a. No.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:58]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:26:58]:
And that's often what we're afraid of. I mean, I don't know how many people I spoke to before I spoke to a publisher, but it was a lot because it was over a year.
Morgan May Treuil [00:27:04]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:27:05]:
And. And I don't know how. And so it could be a long journey, but I would encourage her. That's. So work on the skill of whatever. Whatever gift you are, you feel God's given you there. See if there are ways to practice in private, but even in the ways in public. There are.
Jo Saxton [00:27:20]:
I think we've got to ask. We. You don't have. Because you don't ask. Ask him as well. Pray for the. And. And Lord's like, I know you don't like talking about Lord.
Jo Saxton [00:27:27]:
Pray for conversations where I get to drop it in.
Leslie Johnston [00:27:30]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:27:31]:
Ask, ask him. Ask people in. In some way. And, and there are these ongoing. Whenever we're stepping into something new, there is always an ongoing vulnerability. There's this threshold that you cross with a new idea you might have been speaking for years. And then there's another thing. You're like, oh no, here we are again.
Jo Saxton [00:27:45]:
And you suddenly feel like you're five and things. Or you feel like an awkward teenager or whatever. But. But. And that's okay. Do it anyway.
Leslie Johnston [00:27:52]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:27:52]:
Really great.
Leslie Johnston [00:27:53]:
I love that God has like put things. Cuz I even know this in my own life. Nothing even huge, but little things that I grew up with going. I love that. But it doesn't feel super even meaningful. Like things that didn't seem connected to, like how God could use it. That later in life you're like, oh, God remembers those things.
Jo Saxton [00:28:11]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:28:11]:
Some of those things that you didn't even remember that you loved. And later in life it's like he calls him back and is like, yeah, no, see, I put that in you for a reason. And I love what you're saying is like step out in it. Like if God put it in your heart and he has that call on your life, then walk into it.
Jo Saxton [00:28:26]:
Like, you've got to try.
Leslie Johnston [00:28:27]:
Yeah, you've got to try.
Jo Saxton [00:28:29]:
You've got to experiment. And the point of an experiment, we've got to remember at the point of an experiment is not whether it works, it's what we learn from that experiment.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:35]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:28:36]:
Which frees us up.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:37]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:28:38]:
And so there are times I've experimented and it's like, no.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:40]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:28:42]:
I have other gifts. There are sometimes you experimentally. Not yet. And there are some experiments which are now.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:50]:
So good. That's so good. Yes. I saw a hand. I will go here and then we'll go there. Sound good?
Jo Saxton [00:28:58]:
What advice would you give to the fearful asking for a friend.
Morgan May Treuil [00:29:02]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:29:04]:
She said, what advice would you give for the fearful asking for a friend?
Morgan May Treuil [00:29:08]:
Okay.
Jo Saxton [00:29:16]:
I would ask what you're afraid of and pay attention to what you're afraid of. Whether. If it's an acceptance issue, then I would track back whether there's a hurt or a wound or a situation there or that needs some attention, some work, some prayer, some counsel, some counseling. There's some. But I think there's a facing of our fears that is an inevitable part of our story as well. But I certainly wouldn't shame yourself for feeling afraid. I wouldn't set the standard that you've got to feel better before you can do things. If I wait for my feelings, well, that's great.
Morgan May Treuil [00:29:57]:
Yes. We would still be waiting.
Jo Saxton [00:30:00]:
We would never have met, so I wouldn't. I think sometimes we have to. We kind of try and make ourselves feel bold and things. I would invite your community into that. Who are your closest people, who are praying with you, who are standing with you, who are encouraging you in the. In the various things going on in your life. I would write down the. I would write down the things you're afraid of and write down what's on the other side of that fear as well.
Jo Saxton [00:30:27]:
Sometimes. Sometimes our fear has no reason and sometimes it's got some real pertinent reasons. It's like, oh, it's great that he's talking about calling, but I remember when I tried that and that failed or that messed. Or that that collision happened in my relationships and all of that kind of stuff. Sometimes we're afraid because we've paid a painful price for things, which is why. Which is why I think we've got to identify why it's there.
Morgan May Treuil [00:30:46]:
Right first.
Jo Saxton [00:30:49]:
And then I think in the end, for me, with the threshold of fear, I have found that prayer and people do, you know, I mean, the, the people who are with me in it, who are standing saying, you can do this, you can do this. You've got this. This is why you're doing this. It's really important to have like your soul friends. I think the Celts used to call them the anam Cara, the soul friend, who would be the person who, who would travel up for miles with Celtic missionaries to just stand with them and be with them and pray with them and be with them in the, in their life. Who are your kinds of people who are like, you can talk about your fears with me.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:22]:
It's great.
Jo Saxton [00:31:25]:
It's. It's acceptable to be who you are with me, but I'm also going to stand with you as we journey through.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:31]:
It's great. Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:31:32]:
That, that. Those would be the places I would start.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:34]:
Great question. We'll go over here and then we'll go that way and then that way.
Jo Saxton [00:31:40]:
How do you work to become more
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:42]:
independent, but specifically more independent with God?
Leslie Johnston [00:31:47]:
How do you work to be more independent and specifically independent with God or
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:51]:
dependent with God or wait, dependent. Sorry, wait, what was the question? Independent or dependent on God?
Jo Saxton [00:31:57]:
How would you work to be.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:59]:
Become. How would you work to become more independent? Dependent, but specifically more Independent with God. I see confidence, like, confidence kind of.
Jo Saxton [00:32:11]:
I am 20 years old and I'm
Morgan May Treuil [00:32:13]:
still learning how to become an adult,
Jo Saxton [00:32:14]:
but like a Christian woman adult and stuff. So it's like, how do I try and work with that and being.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:21]:
I don't know how to explain.
Jo Saxton [00:32:22]:
No, you didn't grow. Fabulous.
Morgan May Treuil [00:32:24]:
I just want to make sure we know it so we can answer it.
Jo Saxton [00:32:26]:
Well, I think there are a number of things I would say God and I would remind us that God in his very nature is relationship, father, son and spirit. So even God isn't on his own. And, and so there is an element of your. Ironically, there's an element of your growing into who you are in God. That does happen in community.
Morgan May Treuil [00:32:47]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:32:48]:
That does happen in the good friends that you have and you do life with. So I would pay attention to who the people who are in your life and make sure they're good ones. Do you know what I mean? Some people, some people who get away need to go. I'll just put it like that. I didn't pray out people or anything, but, you know, I mean, so I would say who are you surrounding yourself with? What things are you getting involved in? Because again, sometimes we can sit and wait for something to happen and actually it's discovered in the journey of life. So I'd find out that as well. But, but then I would also encourage you and invite you for the. Just in the conversations that you're having with God as you enter womanhood and the fullness of your womanhood and this adventure that God has you on to say, okay, God, let's talk.
Jo Saxton [00:33:32]:
I, I found it uncomfortable, but always really help, ultimately really helpful to just be raw and honest in my conversations with God about how I feel about everything, how I feel about Him. That has helped me cultivate a dependence on him because I've learned over the years he can be. Trust his. He can be trusted. And I've learned over the years that his silence doesn't mean absence. Do you see what I'm saying? That's, that has helped me grow and then. And I, I just keep on inviting him in. So invite him into your days.
Jo Saxton [00:33:59]:
Invite him into your invitement to your aspirations, your dreams, your goals, your prayers, your unanswered prayers. All of those things. I. Independent. The kind of independence and the kind of adulthood maturing you're talking about is. Talking about isn't achieved. It's built brick by brick. And so you're, you're, you're already building that life.
Jo Saxton [00:34:16]:
Life even in the Curiosity that you have. You're building that life. And I would say the curiosity you have is a really. Is a. Is a wonderful gift. So community, something to get involved in and keep honest and raw before the Lord.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:30]:
That's great. Great question.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:32]:
With one in the middle. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:33]:
Someone in the middle. That was yours. Go ahead.
Jo Saxton [00:34:36]:
Can it be a question based on a breakup session you have done before?
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:40]:
Sure.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:41]:
Because I was wondering, how would you.
Jo Saxton [00:34:44]:
What. What are tips about? Like. Like how to pause and enjoy the moment, even with anxiety.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:52]:
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Tips for pausing to enjoy the moment while dealing with anxiety.
Jo Saxton [00:35:05]:
I think I would remind. Well, I think there are a couple of things because I would say make sure your anxiety is being treated to the degree it needs to be great. And so if it's. And like, there have been times for me with anxiety that I've needed a walk or a run. There are times when I've needed a doctor.
Morgan May Treuil [00:35:23]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:35:23]:
And I've needed Sertraline. I think that's so loft or whatever it is. There. There have been times.
Morgan May Treuil [00:35:30]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:35:31]:
Not all the time the same thing, but I've needed to. When you mix it up, it's awkward. It gets real, real fast on those things. So that'd be the first piece I would say. And. And they have been times when I've needed again, someone to talk through because. And talk through my life or the moments. There are pressure points in our lives that.
Jo Saxton [00:35:54]:
Like graduation. Like, I work at a university, so. And I say to these students all the time, I guess you're going to hate me for asking this because you're a senior, but what are you thinking of doing when you graduate? And they're both like, why are you asking me the question? I'm like, because that's what you. At this stage. Yes. And so there are these moments in the year that are particularly pressurized that add to the anxiety. So it's worth identifying those as well.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:14]:
Great.
Jo Saxton [00:36:15]:
And then I would say I. I've had. Sometimes I forget to know how to have fun.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:20]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:36:21]:
And I've had to remind myself of the things I love. And so I think for those. If we're not talking about the medical piece or the counseling piece or identifying the pressure points of the earpiece, then. Then I would ask, what fun are you having? But I think the first thing is identifying which. What one we're dealing with. Because there's a difference between the anxiety. I mean, it's terrible, really. I mean, we live in a heightened.
Jo Saxton [00:36:43]:
Also, you might want to get off socials from time to Time and literally touch grass. Do you know what I mean? You might want to. You might want to do this because, like, when I scroll, it's always telling me about my protein. Always telling me. I'm like, you're telling me about, I don't know, there's some midlife grift that someone's selling me about a course that's going to tell me how to balance my hormones. My hormones. Can't balance my hormones. No course is helping.
Jo Saxton [00:37:06]:
And there's always something that's telling me about something or another. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. I guess maybe I have got that disease.
Morgan May Treuil [00:37:14]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:37:15]:
Because I saw it on Grey's Anatomy.
Morgan May Treuil [00:37:16]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:37:18]:
That's why I could never watch Grey's
Morgan May Treuil [00:37:19]:
Anatomy from that show.
Jo Saxton [00:37:21]:
Maybe I have got. Oh, maybe there's this. And, oh, maybe if I do this exercise with my thighs, it'll give me a six pack. It won't. Maybe. And so I think we have to also pay attention to what we're absorbing and what we can and be honest about what we can absorb at certain times, even. Maybe not all the time, but at certain times we just have to be mindful of those. Those pieces.
Jo Saxton [00:37:41]:
So I think there are some real practical pieces as you. And then, then there are. There is the. In our faith, the casting your burdens onto the Lord, like. And maybe there's a time of day that's a helpful time to be. I'm just giving you this. I'm just giving you this. I'm just giving you this.
Jo Saxton [00:37:55]:
But. But the reason why I mentioned fun as well is because you don't want to leave a vacuum. Yes, necessarily. And sometimes my anxiety has been shoved out by 90s and early 2000s R B. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes my anxiety has been shoved out by a brilliant book. Yeah. Sometimes anxiety has been shoved out by a great movie time with friends and I can't remember what. Or a good date night or me and the kids just.
Jo Saxton [00:38:24]:
I don't know. Well, apparently talking about Beyonce. Yes. Or something or another. Or why Matcha. Matcha is another thing that I think tastes like wax.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:32]:
Wait, what? What is it? Oh, matcha. Oh, yes. Matcha.
Leslie Johnston [00:38:36]:
Is the grass ground up.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:38]:
It's the herb just stirred up.
Jo Saxton [00:38:40]:
Stirred up. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:41]:
Disgusting.
Jo Saxton [00:38:42]:
Just wild. It is the wild. I don't care if it's got lavender on it. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:46]:
Nothing makes matcha better.
Jo Saxton [00:38:48]:
Nothing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:49]:
No.
Jo Saxton [00:38:49]:
Okay, so that's a popular opinion for us. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:52]:
Most everybody agrees with that, I think.
Jo Saxton [00:38:54]:
But there. I think there are. You see, I Mean, there are different things. And so if I would look at the arc of all the things that are happening, if you find yourself in particular patterns, then I would urge you to get help. I would urge you to get help. I know we. And not see it as a lack of faith in God created doctors. I would urge you because there are.
Jo Saxton [00:39:13]:
Sometimes it's like we need help for years rather than getting the help. When you're needing it for that long. You're not. There are diminishing returns in your life.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:20]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:39:21]:
And why should you have to suffer?
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:23]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:39:23]:
Why should you have to suffer?
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:24]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our 15 boy over here.
Jo Saxton [00:39:28]:
Yay.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:28]:
Well, he's.
Leslie Johnston [00:39:29]:
He's 100 boy, but he's 50 of our audience.
Jo Saxton [00:39:32]:
He is 100 male wild.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:36]:
That's great.
Jo Saxton [00:39:36]:
Leslie, how do you healthily seek out mentorship when it isn't available where you are?
Leslie Johnston [00:39:45]:
Yes. He said, how do you seek out mentorship when it's not necessarily super available to where you are?
Jo Saxton [00:39:53]:
With difficulty?
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:54]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:39:55]:
I would say there are. I. This is. I mean, it's. It's real, first of all. And there is a grief around that, and there is a sadness around that. I would say I, I think we could do with praying. You know, like how people pray for their spouses.
Jo Saxton [00:40:10]:
I would say pray for your men as. While you're there. Just, just keep. Pray for your friends. Pray for, pray for all of the things, because these are. They are like unicorns. So here's some things I would suggest. There are multiple ways to be mentored, and some are remote and some are in person.
Jo Saxton [00:40:28]:
So the remote things are the things you're reading the podcast, you're listening to, the people that you're following, and fill your feed with those.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:40]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:40:41]:
That's a helpful start. I know it's not everything, but it's not nothing. Yeah. So that would be. And depending on what area you're looking for and all that kind of stuff, then I would ask yourself, what does it look like to invest in? Are there events I need to go to? Are there spaces I need to go to that will help invest in a thing? Are there networking events that are happening? Those of us who have positions of power and leadership have a networking event. Are there networking events where people can meet? I know people don't like networking, but most jobs are found through networking.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:12]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:41:12]:
Like, I think Department of Labor and statistics in 21, 20, 21 said 85 of jobs were found in it. That was in 21. I mean, I don't know what it is now, but It's a lot. So. And. And I think sometimes we feel icky and awkward because, again, this is not like, we're not waiting to be chosen.
Leslie Johnston [00:41:30]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:41:30]:
Do you know what I mean? I don't know how the Disney princesses got into our callings, but sometimes it's like, waiting to be chosen. Waiting to be picked. I'm like, no, like, it's the door. Push it. If it doesn't open, well, use the handle. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, we get real spiritual about this stuff. And sometimes you just got to ask. You ask a question.
Jo Saxton [00:41:47]:
Ask one question. Most of the people who mentored me didn't realize they were mentoring me because I just asked questions, and I just kept on, just got a question for you. And then. And then I'll be like, hold on, I just need to get the answer. And I'll be like, thanks. Later. Yeah, just got a question for you. Just got one.
Jo Saxton [00:42:02]:
And sometimes they had time to answer. And I've. And I've learned not to take it personally if, like, if someone's busy. That's why you don't want to just find one. You've got to find a bajillion. You've got to be asking a bajillion people questions.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:12]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:42:13]:
I would say mentoring in terms of what are you getting involved in? Because sometimes your mentoring comes in the context of the work that you're doing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:20]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:42:21]:
The projects you're on, the volunteering spaces, who you're learning, those can give you. It's just in that space.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:27]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:42:28]:
Those are the people who naturally you're. You've got a context. Because some people mentor better in a context of actual learning.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:34]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:42:34]:
Rather than a kind of here we are having, like, there's only so much you can learn. Taking someone out for a coffee.
Leslie Johnston [00:42:39]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:42:41]:
And I love me a lovely decaf. I'm a great fan of a decaf latte. However, yes. There are things that are caught and not taught that you want to be doing things with people so good. And so reading, podcasting, asking questions, asking. Asking the people around you, sometimes they're not the people you expect as well. And. And I would also.
Jo Saxton [00:43:04]:
I. I also want to give a shout out to your peers mentoring, like peer mentoring. I was some. One of the guys who was hosting me asked a question about this, and I said, honestly, don't underestimate the power of your peers and your friendships, because if you have the gift of a life that. Where you know each other for a long time, you're all going to be rising together and learning from you. Become a brain trust for each other.
Leslie Johnston [00:43:22]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:43:23]:
So I have friends who, Who I speak like, we fellow speakers and things. And we're like, so how much did you get paid?
Morgan May Treuil [00:43:29]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:43:30]:
And we're like, go negotiate.
Morgan May Treuil [00:43:33]:
Huh?
Jo Saxton [00:43:34]:
Wow. Or. Or we book deals or things like that. People who can. Who you can be real honest with.
Leslie Johnston [00:43:40]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:43:41]:
Who you can. And so you. I would encourage you to cultivate those kinds of relationships whilst you're waiting for the mentor. And. And honestly. And when you get that advice from a mentor, share the wealth. I was talking to this person, they said, this, this, this and this.
Morgan May Treuil [00:43:54]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:43:55]:
Share the wealth. So those would. Those would be the things I would really encourage. I do think it is hard, I also would say, for women that we can get mentored, but we also need to be sponsored. This is. I know, right? Yeah. The unicorn just got wings. It just got a wild.
Jo Saxton [00:44:15]:
And it's like. There's this quote from the Harvard Business Review. What did it say? Why mentors give wise advice. Sponsors get you to the next level.
Morgan May Treuil [00:44:24]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:44:24]:
And the reason why it's important to see the distinction is sometimes what we're wanting is someone to help us get to the next level in the calling and the ministry and all that kind of stuff. They're harder to find because they're the people who put your. Take your name to the table.
Leslie Johnston [00:44:37]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:44:39]:
They're the ones who. Who recommend you. Now it's hard to recommend someone you've never met. It's hard to recommend someone. And that's why, again, I advocate for being involved in things.
Morgan May Treuil [00:44:50]:
Right.
Jo Saxton [00:44:50]:
Because they can give a reference to someone they've seen at work.
Morgan May Treuil [00:44:53]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:44:55]:
And. And so I would also encourage you to think through who. And. And the, the hard thing about this is these are culture shifts we're talking about because women historically haven't been given opportunities, and we are still living the legacy of that. We're trying to reverse the legacy of that. But we are still. It's still. We're not there yet.
Jo Saxton [00:45:13]:
Yeah, but I. But. And though. And those. And your sponsors don't even have to necessarily always mentor you. They could be male and female. I've learned lots from my male leaders, and often they were the ones at the table.
Morgan May Treuil [00:45:26]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:45:28]:
So they had to know what I wanted to do.
Morgan May Treuil [00:45:30]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:45:30]:
They had to know what I. Where I wanted to go. Because they were the ones who could open the doors.
Leslie Johnston [00:45:36]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:45:36]:
I know we're saying God opened the door, but. And he did. But. Yeah, they opened the door.
Morgan May Treuil [00:45:41]:
Thank you. For speaking honestly to that. Because that's a. I think that's a question. In some churches you feel like you can have that. Honestly.
Jo Saxton [00:45:48]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:45:48]:
And then I'm not sure the church is represented in this room, but in some churches that's not a, that's not a conversation you can have. Honestly. That there are very real obstacles to being a female and being a leader, regardless of what profession you're in, whether you're in a church or you're self employed or you work in a business. I really appreciate you speaking to that honestly because you might not have been given permission to ask that question, but it's a real question and it has to do with your leadership and your opportunity.
Jo Saxton [00:46:11]:
It's real. Yeah, it's so, so real. So real. It's so real. And I. Can I speak to a side thing of that, please? Because it's a created scarcity that happens when we don't have these opportunities in that there's room for one woman or two women. And that, and what that does is it creates a game of musical chairs.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:31]:
Huh?
Jo Saxton [00:46:32]:
But where there are 30, 40 gifted women, two opportunities, right? And, and before you know it, because everybody's got bills and everybody's got passion and everybody got got, everyone's got goals, then people become a threat. Instead of a sister, your sisterhood, your brain trust becomes someone who denies you opportunities. And musical chess is a great game when you're seven. It's a terrible game when you're trying to rise as a leader because you won't, you won't refer, you won't even recommend each other because it's like, well, there's only one opportunity right there. And, and I. And again, it's. It's really hard. It's really hard and it's very costly.
Jo Saxton [00:47:10]:
But I want to encourage us to work out the cultures we want to create.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:14]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:47:14]:
The kind of leaders we want to be and whether. And sometimes that will require sacrifices of us, that will require us opening doors, that require us recommending names, that will require all kinds of things of us in the years to come. And I'm saying for some of us, that's the reality now. For some of you, that might be reality in 10 years. But I'm saying it now because I. This is a conversation I've been having for the last 30 years.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:40]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:47:41]:
Because too few of us when we get the opportunities, share them.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:46]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:47:46]:
Too few of us when we get the. Because we're so glad we got there. We're like, gosh, that was exhausting. Yeah. And the best we got is good luck. May the Lord bless you and keep you.
Leslie Johnston [00:47:56]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:47:56]:
And when he raises you, when it's your time, he'll raise you up. And I'm like, okay, yeah, but also.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:02]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:48:02]:
Also.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:03]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:48:03]:
Let's not be selfish here.
Leslie Johnston [00:48:04]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:48:05]:
Let's not be. Let's not be weird about it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:07]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:48:07]:
Just. Let's. Let's not. Just because we managed with. The problem with glass ceilings is that the glass goes somewhere. And so when it cuts you up and everything, you're just like, I'm just so glad I'm not bleeding anymore. Oh, wait, I am.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:18]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:48:19]:
That I. That you don't think of anything else. But. But we've got to remember, we've got. We've got to remind ourselves that we need all hands on deck.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:27]:
Yes.
Jo Saxton [00:48:28]:
And we need to multiply leadership. And. And I know it's not fair that we didn't get it, but that doesn't mean no one else should.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:36]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:48:37]:
Such a good point.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:38]:
We talk about often on this podcast that pulling someone else's seat up to the table.
Jo Saxton [00:48:43]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:44]:
Does not mean that you lose yours. In fact, oftentimes you get to keep yours and you get to involve somebody else in it. But it is such a. It is such a. An unfortunate thing that not only are there not a lot of seats, but that they. That it gets turned into. There are not enough seats. And now I'm in competition with you.
Jo Saxton [00:49:01]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:01]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:01]:
It's a really unfortunate.
Jo Saxton [00:49:02]:
Painful. And sometimes you've got to build your own tables.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:05]:
That's a great point.
Jo Saxton [00:49:07]:
Sometimes you've got to build your own tables. And then also maybe a table is too finite and you just need to build a barn or something. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but you've got to build other things. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:15]:
And.
Jo Saxton [00:49:15]:
But they're harder. But it's harder. I mean, again, it sounds romantic, but it's harder because the tables are often monetized. Tables are often more popular and stuff. And then. And they're known. Then they're a known entity. Building these things out there are.
Jo Saxton [00:49:30]:
Are wonderful and important, but they can feel lonely. And trailblazing is great until you feel the cuts and the grazes and it's sweaty and hard.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:37]:
Yeah.
Jo Saxton [00:49:37]:
But I would still encourage us for the sake of the kingdom, because even our calling is about the kingdom of God. We need to be builders.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:46]:
Yeah. So good.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:48]:
Wow.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:49]:
Can you guys. Oh, I think. I think we have to wrap up, but can we give a massive thank you to Jo for coming?
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:55]:
So good.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:56]:
And sharing her wisdom.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:58]:
I have so many things. I'm glad I didn't have my notes out.
Leslie Johnston [00:50:01]:
I'm really glad that we get. I mean, unfortunately, our listeners won't who are listening to this podcast, but all of us in the room get a whole other section with Jo just in a few minutes over here in the worship center.
Morgan May Treuil [00:50:11]:
But I can't wait.
Leslie Johnston [00:50:12]:
Thank you for sharing. I know, I know. Thank you for sharing so much wisdom with us and everything you said, even. Even just the last stuff you said. I'm like, oh, it's cool to go. If you're not experiencing something for yourself or you didn't get the opportunity, go build it for somebody else. I think that can be basically multiplied in so many different areas of our lives. So thank you so much for being so good.
Jo Saxton [00:50:36]:
Thank you for having us.
Morgan May Treuil [00:50:36]:
Would you enjoy this? So good.
Leslie Johnston [00:50:39]:
We will do this again soon. Thanks for listening to Am I Doing this Right? And we will see you guys next time.
Morgan May Treuil [00:50:44]:
Bye.